# Why no calls for 'civility' from liberals in wake of "tastes like hate" anti-Chick-Fil-A campaign? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2012, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656 "2012-08-16T08:55:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/61 "2012-08-17T15:35:57Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > The Christian Post headline reports [Chick-fil-A ‘Tastes Like Hate’ Vandal Arrested](http://www.christianpost.com/news/chick-fil-a-tastes-like-hate-vandal-arrested-79818/). The person is described as a vandal. > > The Los Angeles Times headline reports [Gay artist arrested in Chick-fil-A ‘hate’ vandalism incident](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/08/gay-artist-arrested-in-chick-fil-a-hate-vandalism-incident.html). The person is described as a gay artist. > > Yes, I cherry picked these examples. But I did so for a reason. The words we use end up framing a debate. And our choice of words says something about how we view the opposition. If I choose words that are dismissive or a distortion of those who oppose my viewpoint I can more easily assign viewpoints to them that they may or may not hold. Your post is a little misleading, since they clearly say that the guy was a gay artist who was arrested for vandalism. It’s not like they were characterizing the vandalism as art. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/62 "2012-08-17T15:47:48Z")
To the Christian Post the accused is first and foremost a vandal. The word _vandal_ carries a negative connotation of willful destruction of property without the owner’s consent. To the Los Angeles Times the accused is first and foremost an artist. The word _artist_ carries a positive connotation of one having particular skill in the fine arts. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/63 "2012-08-17T15:51:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is false. No it’s not. > [@](#): > > What you really mean is that I have offered no reasons that _you_ think are good ones. That’s a different thing. But it is the game played by your crowd. No, what I mean is that I am capable of evaluating rational arguments. And all of yours, in regards to same-sex marriage, are drivel. They are simply assertions of preference, not rational reasons to deny people rights. > [@](#): > > And don’t bother asking me yet again, "Well, what are these reasons, huh, huh, huh?Because I’ve supplied them before, more than once, yet people like you still peddle the bullshit that 1) I haven’t given reasons and even, 2) there is no rational reason to oppose SSM. You have never, that I have seen, actually said any reasons that rise to the level of rational arguments. And every time I ask you for such reasons you say something similar to the above. If you had a rational argument, you’d be well served to post it once and to keep a link handy, to shut me up when moments like this arise. As to whether there is a rational reason, perhaps there is. But that’s amazingly unlikely considering no one has brought it up in the history of the debate on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/64 "2012-08-17T15:52:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This was a great post. Lots of good points. Particularly the one about “bigotry” and “discrimination”. That line of debate was shut down by mod. You should focus on the subject at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/65 "2012-08-17T15:58:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t think l **ance strongarm** is playing games. The game-playing was “Instead of mentioning you-know-what, I’ll refer to it as “you-know-what.”” I was not describing the comparison as game-playing, but the comparison itself is still off-limits for the reasons I already described. This thread is not about same-sex marriage itself, it’s about the criticism and campaigns against Chick-Fil-A. > [@magellan01](#): > > This was a great post. Lots of good points. Particularly the one about “bigotry” and “discrimination”. You appear to be ignoring my instructiosn here. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/66 "2012-08-17T16:02:32Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > To the Los Angeles Times the accused is first and foremost an artist. The word _artist_ carries a positive connotation of one having particular skill in the fine arts. You gotta be kidding me. The headline does not convey that to me _at all_. It would be like these two hypothetical headlines: “Pedophile arrested” or “Truck driver arrested for pedophilia” Does the second one indicate that the person arrested is first and foremost a person having a particular skill in the operation of heavy machinery? _ETA: Now that I think about it, newspapers should avoid the first headline in both my example and in the vandalism case, because a conviction has not happened._ ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/67 "2012-08-17T16:12:23Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That line of debate was shut down by mod. You should focus on the subject at hand. Perhaps you should indicate in post like this: “Junior Mod Hat on”. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/68 "2012-08-17T16:14:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Perhaps you should indicate in post like this: “Junior Mod Hat on”. I wasn’t trying to junior mod. I was letting you know that I couldn’t respond to that line of conversation and no one else could either. I assumed you didn’t read the whole thread, I was trying to help, that’s why I was neutral in my tone. You’re welcome, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/69 "2012-08-17T16:16:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The game-playing was “Instead of mentioning you-know-what, I’ll refer to it as “you-know-what.”” I was not describing the comparison as game-playing, but the comparison itself is still off-limits for the reasons I already described. This thread is not about same-sex marriage itself, it’s about the criticism and campaigns against Chick-Fil-A. > > You appear to be ignoring my instructiosn here. Don’t do it again. Okay. Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation. But I really don’t see how the second quote of mine you cited went against your instruction. Either way, onward. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/70 "2012-08-17T16:18:57Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I wasn’t trying to junior mod. I was letting you know that I couldn’t respond to that line of conversation and no one else could either. > > I assumed you didn’t read the whole thread, I was trying to help, that’s why I was neutral in my tone. You’re welcome, by the way. :rolleyes: The odds of me believing you here are, shall we say, beyond slim. And you really “should” not Junior Mod. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/71 "2012-08-17T16:20:30Z")
Back on topic, please. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/72 "2012-08-17T16:22:04Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No it’s not. > > No, what I mean is that I am capable of evaluating rational arguments. And all of yours, in regards to same-sex marriage, are drivel. They are simply assertions of preference, not rational reasons to deny people rights. > > You have never, that I have seen, actually said any reasons that rise to the level of rational arguments. And every time I ask you for such reasons you say something similar to the above. If you had a rational argument, you’d be well served to post it once and to keep a link handy, to shut me up when moments like this arise. > > As to whether there is a rational reason, perhaps there is. But that’s amazingly unlikely considering no one has brought it up in the history of the debate on this issue. You are wrong. But your new and sensible additions of “that I have seen” and “that rise to the level of rational arguments” (which is subjective and usually begs the question) are positive signs for the future. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/73 "2012-08-17T16:23:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The game-playing was “Instead of mentioning you-know-what, I’ll refer to it as “you-know-what.”” I was not describing the comparison as game-playing, but the comparison itself is still off-limits for the reasons I already described. This thread is not about same-sex marriage itself, it’s about the criticism and campaigns against Chick-Fil-A. I wasn’t making the comparison in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/74 "2012-08-17T18:08:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Now we’ve got an LGBT activist who shot up the Family Research Council’s HQ ([cite](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/15/guard-at-family-research-council-shot/?test=latestnews)). Why aren’t more liberals asking each other to tone down the rhetoric? Too timid to stand up to ideological allies? Blatant hipocrisy? A sincerely-held belief that over-the-top rhetoric is ok as long as it’s targeted at conservatives? **Trinopus** alluded to this previously, but [here is a joint statement](http://www.glaad.org/blog/lgbt-organizations-release-joint-statement-regarding-shooting-family-research-council-frc) issued Wednesday from the directors of numerous LGBT organizations, condemning the shooting. Is this good enough for the OP? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/75 "2012-08-17T18:36:25Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Discrimination simply means making choices. I discriminate in hiring decisions when I choose not to hire anyone who isn’t qualified for the job, for instance. It’s when the discrimination is based on something evil or irrational that it becomes bigotry. I wouldn’t choose not to hire someone because he’s black. > > So sometimes discrimination is normal, and sometimes it is bigotry. And when it comes to marriage, discrimination between those you allow to marry and those you don’t is inescapable, otherwise there would be no need for marriage in the first place. So you shouldn’t go around assuming that everyone’s choice is motivated by hate, since you’ll have to make a choice too. A fair point. As humans we all have our opinions , preferences and bias, but not all opinions are equal. When you have an opinion, especially one you act on, that primarily decides the legal rights of other citizens it ought to require a foundation of facts and rational thinking, not religious dogma, habit, indoctrination, and emotion. I haven’t heard a rational fact based argument against SSM for quite some time. Sincere belief doesn’t cut it when you have no facts to support that sincerity. for a lot of individuals I don’t believe their opposition to SSM is literally full of hate or even intentionally malicious. for a lot of people it’s because it simply doesn’t directly affect them or people tey are close to so they haven’t been forced to deal with the issue. Their opinions are emotional, traditional, or religious rather than from a careful thoughtful examination of the facts and principles. They are by the definition of the word, bigots, because they single out a certain group for no good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/76 "2012-08-17T18:42:13Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > **Trinopus** alluded to this previously, but [here is a joint statement](http://www.glaad.org/blog/lgbt-organizations-release-joint-statement-regarding-shooting-family-research-council-frc) issued Wednesday from the directors of numerous LGBT organizations, condemning the shooting. Is this good enough for the OP? If not, why not? I’m wondering at this point if the OP actually wants to argue this subject. Meanwhile FRC head Tony Perkins says he blames the Southern Poverty Law Center for the shooting, so in addition to being a jerk in general, we know that Perkins is a craven fucker who doesn’t mind trying to twist a crime to his political advantage. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/77 "2012-08-17T20:06:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m wondering at this point if the OP actually wants to argue this subject. Meanwhile FRC head Tony Perkins says he blames the Southern Poverty Law Center for the shooting, so in addition to being a jerk in general, we know that Perkins is a craven fucker who doesn’t mind trying to twist a crime to his political advantage. While I think “blaming them” goes WAY to far, he has a point that they make attacks against groups they list a little more okay. I mean, they’ve been objectively (:rolleyes:) “vetted” as an Official hate Group. So, for some people, they are worthy of hate themselves. And if you hate someone because they are objectively hateful, there’s a few short steps between that and “they’re EVIL!!!”. And they must be stopped. and by golly, if I don’t stand up and teach them a lesson, who will. Again, I do not think they deserve blame for the shooting. That act is the responsibility of the asshole who had the gun. But the SPLC’s stock in trade is has an unhelpful aspect when it comes to trying to keep things civil. Demonizing one’s opponents is rarely a healthy course of action. Unless you want full-on war, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/78 "2012-08-17T20:14:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > While I think “blaming them” goes WAY to far, he has a point that they make attacks against groups they list a little more okay. He’s not making a point, he’s trying to get people who criticize his organization to shut up. To my knowledge the SPLC has never said or done anything that encourages violence against anybody. Calling a group hateful based on evidence doesn’t encourage attacks or violence, and even saying it “demonizes” anybody is kind of hysterical. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/79 "2012-08-17T20:19:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He’s not making a point, he’s trying to get people who criticize his organization to shut up. To my knowledge the SPLC has never said or done anything that encourages violence against anybody. Calling a group hateful based on evidence doesn’t encourage attacks or violence, and even saying it “demonizes” anybody is kind of hysterical. I disagree. When you have a supposed independent deliberative body concluding that a group is a HATE GROUP, you’re encouraging everyone to discount everything they say. Discount it because they are, in some way, evil. After all, they exist to HATE. That lays down very unhelpful groundwork if you hope for civil discourse. It’s the same reason that certain terms are disallowed here in GD. Sounds like you simply want to give these guys a complete pass because they generally align with your side. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656/80 "2012-08-17T20:28:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Discount it because they are, in some way, evil. After all, they exist to HATE. That lays down very unhelpful groundwork if you hope for civil discourse. This is just nonsense. Are you proposing that if not for the SPLC, we’d be enjoying civil discourse with the KKK and the American Nazi Party and the Westboro Baptist Church? I don’t think your comments about the SPLC are grounded in anything approaching common sense or the reality of what the group does. They evaluate and comment on the rhetoric and actions of various groups. Saying that this justifies attacks or demonizing or anything else is just projection. And as I said earlier, calling someone’s comments “hateful” is not uncivil to begin with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-calls-for-civility-from-liberals-in-wake-of-tastes-like-hate-anti-chick-fil-a-campaign/631656.md?page=5)