# Why no Kevlar hoodies or backpacks?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [February 22, 2018, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332 "2018-02-22T12:05:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/21 "2018-02-22T19:40:52Z")
OP was not offering or suggesting a solution to a problem.
Just remarking that such products haven’t come to market as yet.
That’s all.
---
### Author:  [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/22 "2018-02-22T19:54:33Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#):
>
> The textbooks will do nothing. A 9mmP will easily penetrate two or three textbooks with enough energy left to injure or kill, much less any centerfire rifle round. And most people will not have the presence of mind to place their armored backpack to cover critical locations when some random shooter starts firing, nor is the solution to teach children to be little Delta operators or talk in military terms. A school shoud not be an “area of operation” for anything more violent than a game of soccer or a debate tournament.
>
> Stranger
You are [flatly wrong](https://www.concealedcarry.com/safety/will-textbooks-in-a-backpack-stop-bullets/) about textbooks doing “nothing.” Every page slows the bullet by some amount. More so if Mr. Shitbag Mass Murderer decided to splurge on hollowpoints. Now multiply that by 3 or 4 textbooks, each of which is several hundred pages and hardbound before the slug even reaches the kevlar. “Most people” are creatures of habit and can be trained to do things unthinkingly while in the midst of a dangerous crisis. Armies and such depend on that. Slipping on the backpack isn’t a fine motor skill activity and I expect it wouldn’t require SEEL training to learn the habit.
I spent thirty years in the classroom and, in my next to last year, we dealt with an armed nut with a rifle who was intent on shooting up the school. Luckily, he was apprehended before he successfully made entry, but everybody from admin, through faculty, to the students did as we had practiced in drill.
You have my permission to handle things as you see fit the next time you are involved in a school shooting.
---
### Author:  [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/23 "2018-02-22T20:44:46Z")
[This was the incident.](http://triblive.com/news/beaver/8163349-74/police-aliquippa-property) He wasn’t a student because he had dropped out. The mayor really saved the day.
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### Author:  [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/24 "2018-02-22T20:54:28Z")
They should carry cigarette cases and Bibles in their breast pockets.
---
### Author:  [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/25 "2018-02-22T21:10:09Z")
> [@Penfeather](#):
>
> They should carry cigarette cases and Bibles in their breast pockets.
I’m not sure whether you are trying to be funny here or what. Unless you and **SoaT** live in a separate universe with its own laws of physics, bullet damage is directly related to bullet energy. E ∝ mv2. (The 2 should be a superscript but I don’t know how to make the board do that.) Anything that slows the bullet will reduce its energy and the damage it does to the target. That is a fact. So, a regular non-kevlar lined backpack full of books is still better protection than your concert tee-shirt.
We drilled the kids on taking cover behind bookcases and cement block walls and using concealment by staying out of line of sight of doorway windows and below outdoor windows. This isn’t turning kids into spec-ops soldiers. You drill these things the same as you drill how to exit the building and where to assemble in a fire drill.
Of course, you can throw up your hands and say it does nothing and pule about how things “should” be. On that day at school, nobody got shot through a window because nobody was visible through a window.
---
### Author:  [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/26 "2018-02-22T21:54:02Z")
> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> I’m not sure whether you are trying to be funny here or what. Unless you and **SoaT** live in a separate universe with its own laws of physics, bullet damage is directly related to bullet energy. E ∝ mv2. (The 2 should be a superscript but I don’t know how to make the board do that.)
There have been a few cases where the bullet caught something in a pocket & deflected/slowed just enough that the ‘victim’ didn’t die. A real freak of nature thing, but it does happen occasionally.
To fight your ignorance, “sup” in square brackets [&] is how you [sup]superscript[/sup] something.
---
### Author:  [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/27 "2018-02-22T22:45:44Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#):
>
> The textbooks will do nothing. A 9mmP will easily penetrate two or three textbooks with enough energy left to injure or kill, much less any centerfire rifle round.
Lets check the Box O’ Truth. 9mm went through 7 inches:
> **[The Box O' Truth #31 - The Books O' Truth](https://www.theboxotruth.com/threads/the-box-o-truth-31-the-books-o-truth.355/)**
>
> I have had a number of folks send me notes on two related questions.
>
> The first is regarding the Bibles that some US troops carried in their shirt pockets in WWI and WWII.
>
> There were reports that some of these guys had bullets or shrapnel stopped by...
For a cinematic example of a snub nosed 38 from the Sopranos (adult language):
Skip to 1:00 if you are impatient. "This is your lucky day, it only made it to the R's"
Dennis
---
### Author:  [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/28 "2018-02-22T22:47:56Z")
> [@Penfeather](#):
>
> They should carry cigarette cases and Bibles in their breast pockets.
_Bobby Blane: Sometimes adrenaline gives people the shakes, some might think it’s cowardice, so maybe you’d want to pray about it.
Jimmy: I’m not a religious man.
Bobby Blane: There’s nothing wrong with prayer. We knew this firefighter, this trooper, who always caried a bible next to his heart. We used to mock him, but that bible stopped a bullet.
Jimmy: No shit.
Bobby Blane: Hand of God, that bible stopped a bullet, would of ruined that fucker’s heart. And had he had another bible in front of his face, that man would be alive today._[RIGHT]-- _Heist_[/RIGHT]
> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> I’m not sure whether you are trying to be funny here or what. Unless you and **SoaT** live in a separate universe with its own laws of physics, bullet damage is directly related to bullet energy. E ∝ mv2. (The 2 should be a superscript but I don’t know how to make the board do that.) Anything that slows the bullet will reduce its energy and the damage it does to the target. That is a fact. So, a regular non-kevlar lined backpack full of books is still better protection than your concert tee-shirt.
> We drilled the kids on taking cover behind bookcases and cement block walls and using concealment by staying out of line of sight of doorway windows and below outdoor windows. This isn’t turning kids into spec-ops soldiers. You drill these things the same as you drill how to exit the building and where to assemble in a fire drill.
> Of course, you can throw up your hands and say it does nothing and pule about how things “should” be. On that day at school, nobody got shot through a window because nobody was visible through a window.
I have done ballistic testing with phone books, both soaked in soapy water and dry. A 9mm FMJ round will easily penetrate through a large urban phone book (approximately the same as three or four primary school textbooks), and a JHP will often plug and act like an FMJ with dry books, or if fired through denim. _A stack of textbooks is not guaranteed, or necessarily even likely to save a victim even if they manage to put the books between themselves and the bullet._ Trauma plates in backpacks or “Kevlar hoodies” is almost literally band aid solution to a sucking check wound.
The entire rest of the developed world does not run schoolchildren through ‘active shooter’ drills because children are less likely to die from a mass shooting than they are a lightning strike. For some reason, Americans can’t accept that there may actually be a problem with the militarization and very limited oversight, training, or restriction on firearms ownership. And I say this as someone who has long been an advocate for responsible gun ownership, been a firearms instructor, and has handled firearms for much of my childhood and all of my adult life. We’re not going to get rid of guns in this country nor convince a bunch of weekend warriors that they don’t need to go marching around with AR-15s in public view in any practical timeframe, but at a minimum we need some kind of nationwide oversight and validation on the purchase and use of firearms such that we at least don’t have monthly mass shootings of progressively greater body count, and authorities shrugging their shoulders about the senselessness of it all.
> [@mixdenny](#):
>
> Lets check the Box O’ Truth. 9mm went through 7 inches:
>
> [The Box O' Truth #31 - The Books O' Truth | Firearms and Ammuni Forum](https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-31-the-books-o-truth/)
So, kids only need to carry [this thickness of books](https://www.theboxotruth.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/31-14.jpg)? Great, trade mass shootings for hernias.
Stranger
---
### Author:  [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/29 "2018-02-22T22:52:28Z")
How big are these books? Because a shooter isn’t going to shoot that small area when you present a lot larger target. Even the backpack thing is too small for full protection.
Like I said before, how about if we make the desktops themselves from titanium and ceramics to stop even armor piercing rounds. Then we’ll just teach the kids how to [tortoise formation](http://www.primaryhomeworkhelp.co.uk/romans/images/new/tort.jpg). 😛
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/30 "2018-02-22T22:54:23Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#):
>
> _Bobby Blane: Sometimes adrenaline gives people the shakes, some might think it’s cowardice, so maybe you’d want to pray about it.
> Jimmy: I’m not a religious man.
> Bobby Blane: There’s nothing wrong with prayer. We knew this firefighter, this trooper, who always caried a bible next to his heart. We used to mock him, but that bible stopped a bullet.
> Jimmy: No shit.
> Bobby Blane: Hand of God, that bible stopped a bullet, would of ruined that fucker’s heart. And had he had another bible in front of his face, that man would be alive today._
[Trope](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PocketProtector).
---
### Author:  [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/31 "2018-02-22T23:05:19Z")
In my area I still see highschoolers wearing shorts and tee shirts waiting at the bus stop in 20degree weather. I doubt many kids would be convinced to wear heavy bulky clothes to school. Anything that offers meaningful protection is uncomfortable.
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### Author:  [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/32 "2018-02-22T23:07:39Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#):
>
> [Trope](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PocketProtector).
[Anti-trope](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2MxWZTrgxw).
And then, trope reversal:
_Harry: Yeah, boo, hiss, I know. Look, I hate it too. In movies where the studio gets all paranoid about a downer ending so the guy shows up, he’s magically alive on crutches, I hate that. I mean shit, why not bring them all back.
[Everyone who has been killed starts meandering into the hospital room, including Abraham Lincoln; a nurse shoos them all out again]
Harry: But the point is in this case, this time, it really happened. Perry, like, lived. Yeah, it’s a dumb movie thing, but what do you want me to do, lie about it?_
Stranger
---
### Author:  [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/33 "2018-02-23T01:53:35Z")
> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> I’m not sure whether you are trying to be funny here or what.
No, clearly I believe that schoolchildren should behave like they live in a [War Picture Library](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TYByKF37LN0/TO5hgTyUWEI/AAAAAAAAA1w/KMxpDuOc2a0/s1600/SCAN0291.JPG) comic.
---
### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/34 "2018-02-23T02:25:24Z")
> [@Chimera](#):
>
> Most of those, including Kevlar, will not stop a rifle bullet such as a .223 fired from an AR-15.
>
> You need a [heavy plate such as this one](https://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-body-armor/level-iii-body-armor/ar500-armor-backpack-plate.html), specifically made for backpacks. And that’s only a 9.5’ by 13’ plate. Not a lot to hide behind.
A friend of mine (who happens to be a surgeon) posted this: [The AR-15 Is Different: What I Learned Treating Parkland Victims - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/)
---
### Author:  [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/35 "2018-02-23T12:18:11Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#):
>
> A friend of mine (who happens to be a surgeon) posted this: [The AR-15 Is Different: What I Learned Treating Parkland Victims - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/)
Interesting article, good info, thanks for that. Read this one and let’s discuss: [More Horrific Killings - LewRockwell](https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/02/brian-wilson/the-missing-link/)
---
### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/36 "2018-02-23T15:16:02Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#):
>
> So, kids only need to carry [this thickness of books](https://www.theboxotruth.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/31-14.jpg)? Great, trade mass shootings for hernias.
>
> Stranger
My business donates money to the local schools for them to buy book covers. Think if I donate enough, we can get those book covers made out of kevlar, and replace the cardboard of the hardback books with metal armor?
:rolleyes:
---
### Author:  [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/37 "2018-02-23T15:33:28Z")
They should be seriously considering metal desks, maybe!
---
### Author:  [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/38 "2018-02-23T17:45:41Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#):
>
> _Bobby Blane: Sometimes adrenaline gives people the shakes, some might think it’s cowardice, so maybe you’d want to pray about it.
> Jimmy: I’m not a religious man.
> Bobby Blane: There’s nothing wrong with prayer. We knew this firefighter, this trooper, who always caried a bible next to his heart. We used to mock him, but that bible stopped a bullet.
> Jimmy: No shit.
> Bobby Blane: Hand of God, that bible stopped a bullet, would of ruined that fucker’s heart. And had he had another bible in front of his face, that man would be alive today._[RIGHT]-- _Heist_[/RIGHT]
>
> I have done ballistic testing with phone books, both soaked in soapy water and dry. A 9mm FMJ round will easily penetrate through a large urban phone book (approximately the same as three or four primary school textbooks), and a JHP will often plug and act like an FMJ with dry books, or if fired through denim. _A stack of textbooks is not guaranteed, or necessarily even likely to save a victim even if they manage to put the books between themselves and the bullet._ Trauma plates in backpacks or “Kevlar hoodies” is almost literally band aid solution to a sucking check wound.
>
> The entire rest of the developed world does not run schoolchildren through ‘active shooter’ drills because children are less likely to die from a mass shooting than they are a lightning strike. For some reason, Americans can’t accept that there may actually be a problem with the militarization and very limited oversight, training, or restriction on firearms ownership. And I say this as someone who has long been an advocate for responsible gun ownership, been a firearms instructor, and has handled firearms for much of my childhood and all of my adult life. We’re not going to get rid of guns in this country nor convince a bunch of weekend warriors that they don’t need to go marching around with AR-15s in public view in any practical timeframe, but at a minimum we need some kind of nationwide oversight and validation on the purchase and use of firearms such that we at least don’t have monthly mass shootings of progressively greater body count, and authorities shrugging their shoulders about the senselessness of it all.
>
> So, kids only need to carry [this thickness of books](https://www.theboxotruth.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/31-14.jpg)? Great, trade mass shootings for hernias.
>
> Stranger
If you were going to be shot, would you prefer the bullet be going faster or slower? I’ve interacted enough with you on this board to know that you have a lot invested in your carefully crafted image of the rocket scientist spook and you will never back down or modify your opinion for fear of damaging that, no matter how factually wrong you are. So, I actually post the question to people who don’t have that burden.
And I repeat, you have my permission to handle the next school shooting in which you are involved any way you please.
---
### Author:  [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/39 "2018-02-23T20:02:03Z")
> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> If you were going to be shot, would you prefer the bullet be going faster or slower? I’ve interacted enough with you on this board to know that you have a lot invested in your _carefully crafted image of the rocket scientist spook_ and _you will never back down or modify your opinion for fear of damaging that, no matter how factually wrong you are_. So, I actually post the question to people who don’t have that burden.
Oh, for crap’s sake, I’ve been wrong on numerous occasions and owned up to it, such as when I claimed that [POST=9043873]the rear stairs on the 727 are not used as a structural support member to prevent being destabilized during cargo loading/unloading[/POST]. I’m sure if you look you can find more examples of my making and admitting to mistakes, albeit not by the coterie of posters who enjoy the game of following from thread to thread trying to find mistakes [POST=13112617]in[/POST] [POST=17854545]every[/POST] [POST=20671302]statement[/POST].
In any case, a normal backpack load of school books will not assuredly stop a high velocity rifle bullet and may allow even a lower velocity pistol round to penetrate through with enough energy to maim or kill _even if the backpack happens to be in line with the trajectory of the bullet_, a statement I will continue to make despite how it upsets your sensibilities. The notion of integrating garments or backpacks with Kevlar or Spectra broadcloth or reinforced hard plate is not a practical solution for any number of reasons, notwithstanding that it is not a practical solution to preventing school shootings any more than we can protect tortoises from being roadkill by bolting steel plates on their shells.
As for the “carefully crafted image of the rocket scientist spook”, I’ve made no secret that as an _engineer_ I work in the aerospace field and in particular on space launch vehicles (and occassionally spacecraft systems). I am not the only ‘rocket scientist’ on the board (in fact, I tried to recruit one, and offered another some guidance on his graduate studies). I have never claimed to be a ‘spook’ (by that I assume you mean spy or covert operator), although I have had the opportunity to meet a few people in both the military special forces community and counterintelligence services, and have known others through contacts outside of my work. I’ve also been a certified firearms instructor and have performed ballistic testing using wet phone books and gelatin, and have read fairly extensively on terminal ballistics of firearms-caused injuries, so I know _a bit_ about what bullets do in various media.
Feel free to flame away if it entertains you, but it doesn’t make the notion that armoring children and drilling them in ‘active shooter’ scenarios is not an effective preventitive or deterrent response to mass shootings at schools and elsewhere.
Stranger
---
### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-kevlar-hoodies-or-backpacks/809332/40 "2018-02-23T20:20:06Z")
> [@Bullitt](#):
>
> Interesting article, good info, thanks for that. Read this one and let’s discuss: [More Horrific Killings - LewRockwell](https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/02/brian-wilson/the-missing-link/)
What I notice from that article is that being male, having access to a gun, and mental illness do not mix. However, being mentally ill is not a great predictor of gun violence.
But give crazy women all the guns they want, they usually don’t even use them to kill themselves.
However: [https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099](https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099)
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