# Why no NFL in LA **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 30, 2007, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672 "2007-12-30T04:27:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2008, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/81 "2008-01-03T05:08:41Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] And those are…? [/QUOTE] [Metropolitan Statistical Areas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Statistical_Area) ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/82 "2008-01-03T05:27:21Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] A much better way to look at it is to compare MSAs. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] And those are…? [/QUOTE] [Metropolitan Statistical Areas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Statistical_Area). On a related note, the population figures **Icarus** brought up for Kansas City and Seattle were for within their city limits. The actual populations of their metropolitan areas are as follows: Kansas City: 1,967,405 Seattle: 3,263,497 Of course, as **Hostile Dialect** said, the actual markets for the Kansas City Chiefs and the Seattle Seahawks are much bigger and include fans in different states that are hundreds of miles from cities where the NFL franchises are located. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/83 "2008-01-03T18:47:05Z")
[QUOTE=cinehead] Except for New England where Bob Kraft built a state of the art stadium with his own money. [/QUOTE] As are the Giants and Jets in a joint venture. Not sure about the new Dallas stadium, though. I know Jerry Jones never misses an opportunity to crow about how it’s a billion dollar stadium. Is he paying for it, or are the taxpayers? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/84 "2008-01-03T18:53:36Z")
Lots of taxpayer dollars in there. Can’t fins the numbers, but it was going to be in Fair Park until Laura Miller wouldn’t cave to his demands, while Arlington was willing to pass a hotel tax to help pay for Jerry World. ---
**Author:** ![cinehead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@cinehead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cinehead)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/85 "2008-01-04T04:36:58Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] Is it just me, or would it be _awesome_ to see an NFL game between two great passing teams played by Canadian rules? An exhibition game, of course, but still! Well, that’s going on my list of Things To Do If I’m Ever So Rich I Can Make Anything Happen. I don’t think it takes a lot of cost-benefit analysis (or knowledge of N **H** L history, although that helps) to figure out that it’s a little easier to sell loads of tickets in Boston than Hartford. [/QUOTE] Ticket sales aren’t the biggest source of revenue for NFL teams. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/86 "2008-01-04T04:40:32Z")
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried] Are you making fun of the Angels? I love their new name! “The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim” has a ring to it that no other team name has. [/QUOTE] A ring of stupidity. It’s a preposterous name. Which city are they in? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/87 "2008-01-04T15:49:40Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] A ring of stupidity. It’s a preposterous name. Which city are they in? [/QUOTE] I think he’s being facetious. Nobody actually thinks that “The The Angels Angels of Anaheim” is a good name. They’re in Anaheim. That said, the name is no more preposterous than the New York Giants or New York Jets, who play in New Jersey… ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/88 "2008-01-04T16:40:47Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] I think he’s being facetious. Nobody actually thinks that “The The Angels Angels of Anaheim” is a good name. They’re in Anaheim. That said, the name is no more preposterous than the New York Giants or New York Jets, who play in New Jersey… [/QUOTE] These not only sound absolutely moronic, but seems like a HUGE slap in the face of the actual host town. “Okay, you guys deal with the traffic and stadium cost and police overtime and all that, but _don’t tell anyone we’re together_!” It’s funny, as the A’s and 49ers are looking to move, it seems most A’s fans want them to keep the Oakland name if they move to Fremont, but 49er fans would be furious if they went to Santa Clara and kept the San Francisco name (personally, I’ll just become a Raider fan). ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/89 "2008-01-04T16:41:28Z")
[QUOTE=astorian] Exactly right- Jacksonville and Memphis wanted desperately to be seen as Big Time Cities. An NFL team wasn’t just another entertainment option to those towns- it was a status symbol, a sign that they’d arrived. Hence, they overspent to get NFL teams. Los ANgeles doesn’t need to be seen as a Big Time City- it IS one, and the NFL needs their big market more than they need one more entertainment option. [/QUOTE] Um, Memphis doesn’t have an NFL team. The Titans play in Nashville. When they first moved from Houston (as the Oilers) they played in Memphis while waiting for their new stadium to be built in Nashville; but attendance was so low that they moved to Nashville early and played at Vanderbuilt University for a season before the new stadium (now LP Field) was done. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/90 "2008-01-04T16:56:07Z")
[QUOTE=Usram] How can you you countenance major sports teams just flitting from city to city? There is no way on Earth that a big English team, Newcastle United say, could or would suddenly become Brighton United or Frankfurt United, merely because those were more lucrative markets. The very idea is ridiculous. It would take many years for their new locals to start supporting them, for one thing, and the old supporters would be so disgusted that they’d probably switch to supporting Sunderland (which is saying something, indeed). The way you blithely accept major sports teams moving across the country merely because it makes business sense… it baffles us. [/QUOTE] We’ve had this discussion repeatedly on this board. I’m surprised you’re still baffled. Here’s the basic outline: In England, every locality, whether big or small is already represented by a club at some level of play that holds the loyalty of the locals. In the United States, only the top level of play counts; clubs in the lower leagues can claim little interest or loyalty. Imagine an English football league in which the fans care only about the Premiership and couldn’t give a shit about the clubs in the lower divisions. In the United States, sports fans barely acknowledge that the lower leagues even exist. In fact, if all you have is a lower league club, then it’s a kind of a matter of shame, because you aren’t a “major league city.” Thus, every serious sports fan wants a club in the top league and is willing to accept one by hook or by crook, even if it is through stealing a team from another locality. So when a team moves, it can count on the automatic loyalty of the new city. As for the old city, well, they didn’t pay for a stadium with taxpayer money, so fuck 'em. Maybe they will learn their lesson and build one so they can steal a team from another place. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/91 "2008-01-04T17:01:06Z")
[QUOTE=Bearflag70] A possible mildly interesting impact of a Bills or Jax move to LA is it will destroy the NFL’s fairly nice geographic division realignment unless the NFL bumps the Chiefs out of the AFC West, which I doubt it would do. [/QUOTE] “Fairly nice”? When Dallas is in the same division as New York and Baltimore is in the same division as Cincinnati? Granted it’s slightly less preposterous than previously, but it’s still geographically idiotic. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/92 "2008-01-04T20:42:17Z")
> [@cinehead](#): > > Ticket sales aren’t the biggest source of revenue for NFL teams. I didn’t say they were. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/93 "2008-01-04T20:56:03Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] “Fairly nice”? When Dallas is in the same division as New York and Baltimore is in the same division as Cincinnati? Granted it’s slightly less preposterous than previously, but it’s still geographically idiotic. [/QUOTE] Well, where would YOU put Dallas? The NFC South is set; I suppose in the AFC South you could replace Indy with Dallas, but then where would Indy go? To the NFC North, while Baltimore goes to the NFC East? Hey… that might work… ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/94 "2008-01-04T21:09:08Z")
[QUOTE=cinehead] Ticket sales aren’t the biggest source of revenue for NFL teams. [/QUOTE] Ticket and concession sales are the biggest source of _profit_ for teams, in that TV deals pretty much cover player salaries and merchandise revenue is shared. Normal seat sales are shared at 60/40 between the home and away team, while luxury boxes are not, hence the push for more and more boxes in stadiums. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/95 "2008-01-04T21:13:03Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] An LA team, by contrast, would compete with a formidable San Diego team 120 miles away, **not to mention all of the gangbangers rooting for the Raiders** and the fogeys possibly rooting for the Rams, not to mention serious competition from UCLA and USC. [/QUOTE] Nothing to contribute here other than that I have not, nor have I ever been, a gangbanger. 😉 I was actually happy when the Raiders went back to Oakland. Because of the stupid television rights issues, home games weren’t broadcast locally unless the Colisseum sold out. And if I recall correctly, the Colisseum was set up for 90,000+ seats when the Raiders were here. Which is to say, I never got to see any home games on television. And I sure as hell couldn’t afford the cost of a NFL admission ticket on a regular basis back then. Now, I get to see the Raiders on TV almost every week (excluding during the playoffs, of course). So it’s a win-win for me! That being said, if we ever did get a franchise here in LA, I would likely support them by attending and rooting for them. But I’m not holding my breath. And I don’t care that much. Football season is essentially a mild nuisance that falls between the MLB playoffs and the start of Spring Training as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/96 "2008-01-04T21:45:12Z")
[QUOTE=MichaelQReilly] It does happen in England though, you just have to go back a while. Woolwich Arsenal have been impersonating a north London club for 90 plus years now 🙂 . [/QUOTE] I even had Arsenal as my example before thinking that somebody was bound to mention Woolwich Arsenal, so I changed it to Newcastle Utd. > [@ascenray](#): > > We’ve had this discussion repeatedly on this board. I’m surprised you’re still baffled. > > Here’s the basic outline: > > In England, every locality, whether big or small is already represented by a club at some level of play that holds the loyalty of the locals. I haven’t necessarily read every thread in SDMB history, and I don’t recall reading one on this precise subject. But anyway, your answer doesn’t explain it: “…teams in the lower leagues can claim little interest or loyalty… fans care only about the [big league] and couldn’t give a shit about the clubs in the lower divisions… fans barely acknowledge that the lower leagues even exist” OK, but how come? In England, fickle fans are dismissed as “glory hunters” by those who consider themselves true supporters. We do have them - when modest club Blackburn Rovers had their moment in the sun in the 90s, you would suddenly see lots of brand new lifelong fans walking around in blue and white team shirts, all over the country. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/97 "2008-01-04T21:58:27Z")
[QUOTE=Usram] OK, but how come? In England, fickle fans are dismissed as “glory hunters” by those who consider themselves true supporters. We do have them - when modest club Blackburn Rovers had their moment in the sun in the 90s, you would suddenly see lots of brand new lifelong fans walking around in blue and white team shirts, all over the country. [/QUOTE] But you’re mistaken in equating this with “glory hunting.” We also have lots of fans who latch onto a team when they’re doing well. But that’s not the same thing. (And anyway, what does that matter to either the league or the team? Revenue is revenue, regardless of whether it comes from glory hunters or from genuine lifelong fans.) But this isn’t glory hunting. When you are a sports fan and the sport you love finally puts a big league team in your town, your natural loyalty goes to your local big-league team. There will be a small number of holdouts who stick with their distant-city loyalties, but their numbers will diminish over time as any new fans will automatically direct their loyalties to the local club. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/98 "2008-01-05T02:35:03Z")
[QUOTE=Asimovian] Because of the stupid television rights issues, home games weren’t broadcast locally unless the Colisseum sold out. [/QUOTE] Subtract an “s” and you have the current Raiders situation. > [@](#): > > As for the old city, well, they didn’t pay for a stadium with taxpayer money, so fuck 'em. I wouldn’t say it’s always that simple. There were like 7,000 people in Montreal on hand to see Tony Gwynn collect hit #3,000. I shed no tears for Montreal losing its team. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/99 "2008-01-05T15:56:52Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] When you are a sports fan and the sport you love finally puts a big league team in your town, your natural loyalty goes to your local big-league team. There will be a small number of holdouts who stick with their distant-city loyalties, but their numbers will diminish over time as any new fans will automatically direct their loyalties to the local club. [/QUOTE] [Bill Simmons explains](http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/020227): > [@](#): > > Loyalties > 18. If you live in a city that has fielded a professional team since your formative years, you have to root for that team. None of this, “The Bengals weren’t very good when I was growing up in Cincy, so I became a Cowboys fan” crap. > > Also, you can’t start rooting for a team, back off when they’re in a down cycle, then renew the relationship once the team starts winning again. All those Cowboys fans who jumped off the bandwagon in the late-'80s, jumped back on during the Emmitt/Aikman Era, then jumped back off in the late-'90s … you know who you are. You shouldn’t even be allowed out in public. > > (There’s nothing worse than a Bandwagon Jumper. If sports were a prison and sports fans made up all the prisoners, the Bandwagon Jumpers would be like the child molesters – everyone else would pick on them, take turns beating them up and force them to toss more salads than Emeril Lagasse.) > 19. Once you choose a team, you’re stuck with that team for the rest of your life … unless one of the following conditions applies: > > Your team moves to another city. All bets are off when that happens. In fact, if you decided to turn off that sport entirely, nobody would blame you. > > You grew up in a city that didn’t field a team for a specific sport – so you picked a random team – and then either a.) your city landed a team, or b.) you moved to a city that fielded a team for that specific sport. For instance, one of my Connecticut buddies rooted for the Sixers during the Doctor J Era, then happened to be living in Orlando when the Magic came to town. Now he’s a Magic fan. That’s acceptable. > > One of your immediate family members either plays professionally or takes a relevant management/coaching/front office position with a pro team. > > You follow your favorite college star (and this has to be a once-in-a-generation favorite college star) to the pros and root for his team du jour … like if you were a UNC fan for the past 20 years, and you rooted for the Bulls (because of MJ) and then the Raptors (because of Vince). Only works if there isn’t a pro team in your area. > > The owner of your favorite team treated his fans so egregiously over the years that you couldn’t take it anymore – you would rather not follow them at all then support a franchise with this owner in charge. Just for the record, I reached this point with the Boston Bruins about six years ago. When it happens, you have two options: You can either renounce that team and pick someone else, or you can pretend they’re dead, like you’re a grieving widow. That’s what I do. I’m an NHL widow. I don’t even want to date another team. > > If you’re between the ages of 20-40, you’re a fan of the Yankees, Cowboys, Braves, Raiders, Steelers, Celtics, Lakers, Bulls, Canadiens and/or Oilers, and you’re not actually from those one of those cities … well, you better have a reason that goes beyond “When I was picking a favorite team as a kid, they were the best team, so I picked them.” > > At least give me a reason like “Reggie Jackson was my favorite player growing up,” or “I always liked the red Bulls uniforms,” or even “Everyone in my gang wore Raiders colors.” Do you really want to be known as a bona fide Bandwagon Jumper? > 20. If you hail from New York, you can’t root for the Yankees and the Mets. You have to choose between them. Repeat: You have to choose between them. Don’t give me this “As long as one of them is doing well, at least New York is winning” spiels. What is this, the sports fan’s version of bisexuality? How about making a choice? Any New Yorker who said the words “It’s the Yankees versus the Mets … I can’t lose!” during the 2000 World Series deserves to be tortured with a cattle prod. > > Besides, as we mentioned in the beginning of this column, you shouldn’t practice “Sports Bigamy” in general. Sports teams are just like wives … you can only have one wife, you can only have one sports team, and for the love of God, I will not argue about this. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672/100 "2008-01-05T16:02:18Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] “Fairly nice”? When Dallas is in the same division as New York and Baltimore is in the same division as Cincinnati? Granted it’s slightly less preposterous than previously, but it’s still geographically idiotic. [/QUOTE] The new alignment is based more on preserving old rivalries and possibly creating new ones than on minimzing travel distances (and I think that’s the right strategy - sports fanship depends on rivalries, and fans rarely go to road games anyway). Dallas is in the same division as New York, Philly, and Washington because they’ve \*always \* been (the expansion owners wanted a cut of the eastern teams’ TV ratings), but those are real rivalries now. Miami has always been in the same division as the Pats, Bills, and Jets - those rivalries are real. Baltimore was put in the same division as Cleveland in the hopes of creating an old-Browns vs. new-Browns rivalry, which hasn’t happened, but still preserves the Cleveland-Pittsburgh and Cleveland-Cincinnati rivalries that the league merger created, and are just as real and strong as any other. Etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-nfl-in-la/431672.md?page=6)