# Why no POTUS popular vote. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 2, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457 "2004-11-02T00:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/21 "2004-11-05T01:42:54Z")
I’ll have to follow up with an assupmtion, **Mathochist** , Given your argument on popular votes versus Electoral College votes, I’m going to assume that you would be against ‘proportional’ College votes where the EC votes of a state would be split according to that state’s popular votes. Case in point, in that if I just have to focus on certain parts of certain states, that I’d win those EC votes, validating your post. Tripler Am I right, or am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![Bob55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Bob55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob55)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/22 "2004-11-05T04:44:21Z")
I figured one reason for the EC was to give a bit more power to the least-populus states. Basically every state is guaranteed at least 3 electors (2 senators and 1 representative) regardless of size - the state could have 1 person or 50 million people. Lets say you have 2 states, one with 100,000 people and one with 1 million people. If we don’t have an electoral college, voters in the less-populated state will have a slim to none chance of having any real say in anything. But lets say that each state is given 2 senators (which negate one another) but 1 Representative per 500,000 people. The smaller state, only having 100,000 is still guaranteed to have at least 1 representative, while the heavily-populated state only gets 2 representatives. This means the smaller state now has 3 votes for the President (2 senators, 1 representative) and the large state gets 4 votes for President. Whether or not a state is actually below the population needed per representative anymore is doubtful, but it probably had an impact when we were first settling the nation. A second reason might be another means of checks and balances - you have to elect electors to vote for you, if something crazy happens like massive voter fraud or the President turns out to be a martian the electors still have a choise as to how they will vote. Thirdly, we’re a Representative Republic (as stated above), not a Democracy, so the EC fits more in line with this model. The EC helps prevent voter fraud from having as much of an impact on the election - if 10,000 votes were illegally cast in Texas, no problem the state went to Bush. But in a direct election of the President these votes count. The EC also forces candidates to campaign all over, not just in New York, Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, Philadelphia, and LA. This election was only won with 60 million votes, there are probably 60 million people in America’s top 30 cities. Finally, it was probably harder to count millions of votes up in the past and is just easier to reduce the states to smaller numbers; any recounts required can be done at the state/local level instead of nationally. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/23 "2004-11-05T07:30:30Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > I thank you for putting it in such context. That simple arguement, coupled with the fact that the population’s voters votes go towards a _state electure_ of EC members puts a lot of things in good perspective. Especially for a guy like myself who’se bounced from state to state and has a “feeble but able” grasp of grassroots politics. > > **Mathochist** , thank you! You’re very welcome. If I can now get on my little soapbox, this sort of thing is the real kernel of the “mathematical” approach to an issue: analogies and test cases build to a rough idea of what’s going on. The best proofs are those with simplest stated rough ideas. If someone really wants the details they’re available, but the essential reasoning is very common-sense. This is what we should spend more time teaching at the high school level. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/24 "2004-11-05T13:46:50Z")
> [@Chicago Faucet](#): > > Another wild card is that it is the Electors that cast the vote the the Electoral College. There is nothing prohibiting them from casting their Electoral Vote for the losing Candidate, but it will ensure their political career is at an end. This varies on a state-by-state basis. I don’t have a cite at the moment, but an “election fact” popped up on the TV screen Tuesday night said that 38 states have laws requiring their electors to vote for whomever got the most popular votes in that state. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/25 "2004-11-05T15:05:24Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > AFAIK there currently aren’t any democratic nations. Um, Switzerland. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/26 "2004-11-05T15:08:51Z")
A side question: Since the winner is usually declared as soon as the votes are tallied, does the Electoral College have any value other than symbolic? Do they actually get together and vote? Maybe a nice dinner and a few toasts? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/27 "2004-11-05T15:41:21Z")
A list of the 27 (not 38) states in which electors are bound by party pledges or state laws to cast their vote for a specific candidate. As the National Archives says, “The Supreme Court has not specifically ruled on the question of whether pledges and penalties for failure to vote as pledged may be enforced under the Constitution. No elector has ever been prosecuted for failing to vote as pledged.” The electors meet to vote in their state capitals on the first Monday after the first Tuesday in December, which in 2004 is Monday, December 13. [Key dates](http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/2004/dates.html) in the electoral process. [The National Archives Electoral College](http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/index.html) home page. ---
**Author:** ![jsmith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@jsmith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsmith)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/28 "2004-11-05T17:51:14Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Um, Switzerland. Not to get to far off topic, but I don’t think Switzerland is a democracy, it is a Federal Republic according to the CIA. [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html) Interesting to note, here is there assement of the government from of the US: Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition They also don’t define any country has a true Democracy, but many countries have forms of it. ---
**Author:** ![jsmith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@jsmith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsmith)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/29 "2004-11-05T17:54:02Z")
Please excuse the spelling errors 🙂 Meant to hit preview instead of submit. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/30 "2004-11-05T18:24:48Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > A side question: > > Since the winner is usually declared as soon as the votes are tallied, does the Electoral College have any value other than symbolic? Do they actually get together and vote? Maybe a nice dinner and a few toasts? Walloon explained it below, but the electors are really living people who go to their respective state capitals (or wherever they go in DC) and fill out ballots and sign their names to them. It’s all an open process. You can go to your state capital and watch if you choose. It’s not frivolous at all. ---
**Author:** ![bostonpete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bostonpete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bostonpete)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/31 "2004-11-05T18:27:23Z")
> [@asc165](#): > > Contary to poular belief, we are a Representative Republic, not a Democracy. Indeed a good design This is an academic point and one that’s not even correct – it’s something high school teachers tell their students to try to confuse them as far as I can tell. The U.S. _is_ a democracy – just not a direct democracy. The system is sometimes called an indirect democracy, but it satisfies the definition of a democracy (see Walloon’s post) every bit as much as a direct democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/32 "2004-11-05T19:22:03Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > A side question: > > Since the winner is usually declared as soon as the votes are tallied, does the Electoral College have any value other than symbolic? Do they actually get together and vote? Maybe a nice dinner and a few toasts? The Electoral College is the real vote, but since there have only been a handful of so-called “faithless electors” in history, the numbers that come oout election night are almost always what happens. Still, it’s not impossible that there are a large number of electors like Richie Robb in WV who may decide that they cannot in good conscience as a Republican cast their electoral vote for George W. Bush. Not bloody likely, but theoretically possible. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/33 "2004-11-05T21:31:52Z")
> [@jsmith](#): > > Not to get to far off topic, but I don’t think Switzerland is a democracy, it is a Federal Republic according to the CIA. > > [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html) > > Interesting to note, here is there assement of the government from of the US: > Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition > > They also don’t define any country has a true Democracy, but many countries have forms of it. Republics and democracies are _not_ mutually exclusive. > [@](#): > > _from [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com)_ > **Democracy** : 1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives. > 2. A political or social unit that has such a government. > 3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power. > 4. Majority rule. > 5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community. > > **Republic** : 1.a. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president. > b. A nation that has such a political order. > 2.a. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them. > b. A nation that has such a political order. The United States is a democratic republic that is normally representative in nature, although occasionally votes directly (see recent referenda/propositions as direct examples). Switzerland is a democratic republic (actual name is Confoederatio Helvetica) that has a mix of direct democracy and representative government. ---
**Author:** ![jsmith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@jsmith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsmith)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/34 "2004-11-05T22:12:21Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Republics and democracies are _not_ mutually exclusive. > > The United States is a democratic republic that is normally representative in nature, although occasionally votes directly (see recent referenda/propositions as direct examples). > > Switzerland is a democratic republic (actual name is Confoederatio Helvetica) that has a mix of direct democracy and representative government. Hmmm, seems we have a disagreement on the definition of Democracy. According to Wikipedia: A democracy was a form of government under which the power to alter the basic laws and forms of government lies with the voting citizenry, referred to as “the people”, and **all decisions are made by “the people”.** (bolding mine) I am not saying this is the absolute definition of the word Democracy. It is my understanding of the word. I really don’t care if we call the US a Republic, Democratic Republic, indirect Democracy, Representative Democracy, or even a Democracy. Besides a few measures (as you stated) I believe that I vote for several persons to represent me in government. I thought by the previous statement you made “Um, Switzerland.” you were stating the Switzerland had such a system where all decisions were made by all the people. My bad. Well, sorry for the misunderstanding and I hope it is ok if we agree to disagree. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/35 "2004-11-06T22:29:35Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Democracy: 1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives. > 2. A political or social unit that has such a government. > 3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power. > 4. Majority rule. > 5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community. > > Republic: 1.a. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president. > b. A nation that has such a political order. > 2.a. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them. > b. A nation that has such a political order. What stands out to me is #4: Majority rule. The US is not, and should never be, a nation governed by the “tyranny of the majority”. This is why the founding fathers set us up to be a republic instead of a democracy. This is why even today we are still a republic, and not a democracy. We do not believe that popular opinion automatically equals the right choice. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/36 "2004-11-06T22:54:16Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > We do not believe that popular opinion automatically equals the right choice. How very, very true. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457/37 "2004-11-07T00:34:14Z")
> [@asc165](#): > > Contary to poular belief, we are a Representative Republic, not a Democracy. Indeed a good design Actually we are a Representative Democracy \*and \*a Republic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-potus-popular-vote/272457.md?page=1)