Ever been to the beaches in Spain?
I vaguely remember a passage in Thomas Mann’s Mario and the Magician. A German family vacationing on the beach in Italy in the 1920s;* they’re already changing out of their swimsuits when their little kid remembers she forgot to wash the sand out before putting it away. So she runs naked back to the water and washes it out real quick. No biggie, right? Then they are shocked when the Italian cops bust them for public indecency. (Of course, Italy nowadays allows beach nudity.)
*Ah, they’re 1920s-style “German fiction”
When I was in Scandinavia it was winter so I can’t say how people are about nudity just wandering about outdoors but when I used the pool at the hotel it became obvious that there is a very different cultural attitude about nudity. Technically the dressing rooms were separated for men and women but no one except me paid any attention to the signs. They were actually just one big open space with signs indicating men should change to the right and women to the left but naked people of every age and gender wandered about freely with no worries about being in the wrong dressing room. When I used their aromatherapy massaging tubs they take your towel and help you crawl naked into the tub to make sure everything is comfortable before they start the jets. They just seem cool with people being naked which was kind of nice, actually.
Yeah, there are a number of posts that state that nursing in public is fairly common, but the OP doesn’t seem to acknowledge them.
I suspect that there’s a little bit of climactic difference behind the cultural difference. Scandinavians get little sun in winter and plenty of (northern) sun in summer, and they soak it up while they’ve got it. It’s considered healthy to let your kids run around naked outside so as to soak up some rays, and it’s probably needed in a climate with so much darkness for half the year.
In over half the US, letting your kids run around naked in the summer would result in painful sunburns and heat stroke or something. A lot of us spend our summers trying to limit our direct sun exposure, because it’s dang hot. Every summer, I wish I could just put my little Irish redhead into a sheep-dip vat of sunscreen–for her, her new rash guard isn’t a modesty device but a welcome respite from the need for sunscreen in every nook and cranny.
When I think about letting little kids run around naked outside, I think–owie sunburn in tender places!
I think the OP just confirmed that one statement was part of his original hypothesis, which he was posting about in order to gather information to see whether or not he was correct. I don’t believe he made any particular statements ignoring or acknowledging any of the answers given thus far. I think people are being rather defensive.
It’s been my experience in Canada and a little in the USA that while nursing in public isn’t uncommon, there’s still the expectation that it be done while covered up, in a secluded spot, or at least as far away from people as possible to avoid potentially offending some nitwit. It appears that in Scandinavia, there’s no expectation that a nursing mother would cover up or otherwise hide. There have been many threads on these very boards with people ranting about how they "don’t want to see that, it’s gross!’ and so on. That I’m aware of, there are near weekly - if not more frequent - news articles about someone being kicked out of a store, restaurant or other public place because they were breast feeding. Is that part of common, contemporary discussion on the subject in Scandinavia? Is there even any discussion at all, or is it just so normal as to go entirely unnoticed?
I came across an interesting argument in Geert Hofstede’s book Cultures and Organizations. Cultures that are high in a quality he calls “masculinity” tend to have inflexible gender roles, with men but not women expected to seek sexual conquests, wealth, power, and status. Masculine socities tend to be big on militarism and status symbols but not big on environmentalism or the welfare state. The United States is above average in masculinity, but not among the most masculine countries in the world (Germany, Austria, China, Japan, and Mexico, among others, are all higher). There is a correlation, not perfect, between masculinity and the tendency to see all nudity as sexual. In the most feminine and least masculine cultures, such as Chile, the Nordic countries, the Baltic states, and the Netherlands, nudity is not generally seen as sexual.
Um, the OP has read all of the posts and commented briefly that some posts concur with his primary hypothesis, while others do not, whereby ignorance has been fought. The OP never intended to write an essay summarizing all the pros and cons, since the OP wasn’t aware that this was a requirement on these boards.
The OP is thankful that there are people in this thread who read the written material without putting a lot which wasn’t intended into what was actually written
That makes two of us
This was my initial impression as well and some of the basis for the OP
Where I live, there’s the occasional RO about such things from an old fart more or less once every blue moon, but IME it’s definitely not a part of common, contemporary discussion. An obviously nursing mother in an informal setting, a nude toddler/preschooler on the lawn/at the beach or a prepubescent girl in just a bikini bottom without a top would largely go unnoticed.
Do Scandavian parents really hover over their children poised to intervene in a playground pooping? How is that better than sending the kid out to play in a diaper and just letting them do their thang? I think as another poster stated there might be an underlying belief – one which is or was correct at one time for children in northern lattitudes – that a child being naked in the summer is not only acceptable but to some degree necessary for health reasons.
Reminds me of my Austrian friend’s mom, who was certain that if you didn’t sleep with the window partially open, you would definitely die in your sleep. When most homes were warmed with coal, this was probably correct and excellent advice (carbon monoxide). Now, it’s just a slightly laughable, but deeply-rooted cultural belief that no number of carbon monoxide detectors can erase.
In a general sense, we’re childish (or immature, if you like) in our views of nudity and sexuality, yes. This is why we feel the need to ogle and take pictures when visiting countries where public nudity is common at beaches and even in city parks.
I’m against naked toddlers because it seems unsanitary, but I see women nursing in public on a fairly regular basis. As long as they’re reasonably discreet, I see no reason to object.
Which is not to say no one objects. An ex of mine got hauled before a church council because the members of her Presbyterian congregation felt she was being too blatant in the way she nursed her youngest; certain of her churchmates felt she was trying to seduce the men of the church. :rolleyes: Having seen her nurse on several occasions, I could only attribute it to jealousy, as she was very pretty.
less so in the UK than on the continent generally and the Scandinavian and Gernmanic countries specifically.
Point in case. I am from the UK but I’m on holiday as we speak in Austria. We’ve been to various pool complexes and in all of them you will see naked genders mixing in the changing areas without any hysteria. No-one shoves a knob in your face, but no-one makes a massive effort to cover up either and it really is the least sexually arousing environment to be in.
In fact, the sauna areas specify that you must be naked. That can be a shock when you first encounter it but very quickly it becomes the norm.
I, for one, don’t want to get an eyeful. Grab a peek. Stroll amongst the naked of any age, size, shape, or gender. Cover it up. I don’t want to see it. I find it offensive. Nothing to do with sex, yes it’s natural, so is pooping and peeing, and I don’t want to see that either. It’s inappropriate in public, and that goes for everyone, squalling kids in particular. (Put a damn diaper on that thing, this is a public beach and I don’t want to see it poop on the ground or play with itself!) There’s a reason clothes were invented - to wear. Wear some.
but were they invented to protect against damage, environment or offence?
And in any case, what on earth is inherently offensive about a naked human body of either gender?
At the beginning of this summer, I was surprised and disappointed to see kids 6 and below being told to “cover up” and “keep your swimsuit on!” at a pool club in Spain (as in, private but owned by an association with several thousand members, not by an individual family). Later visits saw those exact same kids running around buttnaked and at most the parents would say “bring that butt of yours over here, young man, I haven’t finished putting sunscreen on it!” The ones that aren’t potty trained will usually be wearing a diaper, but take into account that in Spain a kid is expected to be potty trained by age 3 at the latest; for half of their previous life they’re unable to run around!
Toddler nudity does seem to be more of an issue now than in the past, based on the changes to the Coppertone Girl logo:
My bottle of Coppertone, bought this year, has the back of her suit even higher than shown in the “Modern Coppertone girl icon” image in that link.
I love this idea:
I have no idea what it’s like nowadays, but I remember from the 70s that someone had written casually in a tourist brochure about the island of Bornholm (Danish) something like “there is also space for nudists” with the result that the island was invaded by Germans naturists. The locals weren’t too happy about it, especially not seeing naked people strolling around in the supermarket.
Ugh. I am all for public breastfeeding but that is plain obnoxious. I do not think women need to hide in a corner while breastfeeding or even “cover up”; Those actually downplay the fact that a child is being fed while up-playing OMG BREASTS. How is that helpful?
nm