# Why no scare of becoming fascist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 17, 2008, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332 "2008-10-17T03:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/1 "2008-10-17T03:29:30Z")
I didn’t want to highjack Euphonious Polemic’s [“Socialist” Country Comparisons thread](http://boardstest.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=488281). It seems there is a certain population of people in the US that fear us becoming a socialist country if we elect a liberal president. How come you never hear about a fear of the US becoming a fascist country if we elect a conservative president? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/2 "2008-10-17T03:35:17Z")
People who _even think_ about voicing that fear are stomped into silence by jackbooted thugs who descend from black helicopters in the dead of night. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/3 "2008-10-17T03:36:33Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > I didn’t want to highjack Euphonious Polemic’s [“Socialist” Country Comparisons thread](http://boardstest.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=488281). > > It seems there is a certain population of people in the US that fear us becoming a socialist country if we elect a liberal president. How come you never hear about a fear of the US becoming a fascist country if we elect a conservative president? I think it’s the lingering effect of the Cold War. Generations were raised to think of communism as the enemy–indeed, the major powers that operated under this system were a clear and present danger to this country (and vice-versa, of course, but the question is regarding the U.S.). Meanwhile, Hitler was defeated and his Reich destroyed, so the country as a whole does not have the same congenital fear of fascism. A darker explanation? Too many people in the right places looking\* forward \*to it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/4 "2008-10-17T03:37:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > People who _even think_ about voicing that fear are stomped into silence by jackbooted thugs who descend from black helicopters in the dead of night. :eek: You mean the _mods_ are in on it? Oh, Science help us! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/5 "2008-10-17T04:12:20Z")
Fascism is the mix of corporations and the military taking over. Why would we worry about that? It is too late. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/6 "2008-10-17T04:36:23Z")
This isn’t exactly an answer to the question, because I think it’s far-fetched that the US government could become either a communist or fascist regime. However, one of the differences between communism and fascism is that, unlike the former, the latter does not depend on being imposed by a government. A communist is someone who advocates the establishment of a communist economic system, but until that day arrives, there is no communism. But fascism is as much an underlying attitude as an overarching policy. It could be defined political bullying. If people are being attacked for lack of patriotism, then fascism is present. What happened to the Dixie Chicks was fascism (albeit relatively mild compared with what we know fascism to be capable of). Fascistic policies can be implemented by a government piecemeal; a law against flag desecration would be an–again small–example of fascism for example. Socialism can be–and is-- implemented piecemeal too, but _communism_ essentially rules out capitalism and regards the state as the primary source of employment, and that’s different. Whether the Iraq war is fascism is debatable. If we’re sincere in wanting Iraq and the rest of the Middle East to be a better, more democratic place, then no. And self-defence is not fascism, but if we’re going around invading countries because there’s a small chance they _might_ attack us, then yes. And if we were hopped up on a sense of militaristic vengeance in the wake of 9/11, then also yes. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/7 "2008-10-17T10:56:16Z")
In short, I think American culture is more comfortable with fascism than communism. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/8 "2008-10-17T11:25:35Z")
Then there are those of us who recognize fascism & socialism as two sides of the same authoritarian coin (also Naziism & Communism of the same totalitarian coin). ---
**Author:** ![IClaudius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c37758/32.png) [@IClaudius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IClaudius)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/9 "2008-10-17T11:29:16Z")
It’s because most people don’t know what socialism really means. They simply use the label as a pejorative club to bash their political opponents over the head about their diverging views of political economy, which are, in practical and policy terms, more nuanced and marginal differences over the correct approach to taxation policy, regulatory balance and government coordination over negative externalities and public goods. The fact that the two chief claimants to political orthodoxy in Western industrialised nations today basically share a common framework committed to an order based on free markets and constitutionally limited liberal democracy is simply less effective polemic when you nail it down like that. Liberatarians and conservatives are, I think, particularly guilty of this because they tend to misread Hayek, and grossly overstate his case for the slippery slope. The comparative lack of currency and potency about the word fascism today, I think, reflects a completely different issue. There are no empowered fascist movements in the United States, for example, and to the extent that some pernicious fascist ideas or attitudes may be said to inhabit our political system, it is clearly both hyperbolic to use that label and devaluing to the great trauma associated with the reality of that historical movement. Having a look at a good definition of fascism would be helpful in this context: > [@Robert O. Paxton - The Anatomy of Fascism](#): > > ``` > Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. > > ``` Paxton provides the following list of “mobilizing passions” to help identify fascist political movements: > [@](#): > > 1. a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of any traditional solutions; > 2. the primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether individual or universal, and the subordination of the individual to it; > 3. the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external; > 4. dread of the group’s decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences; > 5. the need for closer integration of a purer community, by consent if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary; > 6. the need for authority by natural chiefs (always male), culminating in a national chieftain who alone is capable of incarnating the group’s historical destiny; > 7. the superiority of the leader’s instincts over abstract and universal reason; > 8. the beauty of violence and the efficacy of will, when they are devoted to the group’s success; > 9. the right of the chosen people to dominate others without restraint from any kind of human or divine law, right being decided by the sole criterion of the group’s prowess within a Darwinian struggle. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/10 "2008-10-17T12:25:30Z")
Not to be too obvious, but Paxton’s list sure makes me think of the PNAC circle surrounding GWB. (Especially Nos. 7 and 8.) ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/11 "2008-10-17T12:35:44Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > Not to be too obvious, but Paxton’s list sure makes me think of the PNAC circle surrounding GWB. (Especially Nos. 7 and 8.) And 9 too. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/12 "2008-10-17T13:23:06Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > It seems there is a certain population of people in the US that fear us becoming a socialist country if we elect a liberal president. How come you never hear about a fear of the US becoming a fascist country if we elect a conservative president? The wingnuts have been too busy speculating about Bush suspending elections due to “national emergency” to concentrate fully on a McCain fascist state. Posts #10-11 however indicate that this mindset is merely dormant and ready to flower in the event of an Obama defeat. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/13 "2008-10-17T13:29:15Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The wingnuts have been too busy speculating about Bush suspending elections due to “national emergency” to concentrate fully on a McCain fascist state. > > Posts #10-11 however indicate that this mindset is merely dormant and ready to flower in the event of an Obama defeat. Forgive us “wingnuts” for being a little cynical about the commitment to civil rights and democracy of people who spy on American citizens and engage in torture. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/14 "2008-10-17T13:34:50Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > I didn’t want to highjack Euphonious Polemic’s [“Socialist” Country Comparisons thread](http://boardstest.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=488281). > > It seems there is a certain population of people in the US that fear us becoming a socialist country if we elect a liberal president. How come you never hear about a fear of the US becoming a fascist country if we elect a conservative president? Because lefties screamed “Fascist!” so many times when it clearly wasn’t at all appropriate or reasonable that nobody could take it seriously any more. The lefties realized they had begun to sound foolish and stopped. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/15 "2008-10-17T13:36:56Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > In short, I think American culture is more comfortable with fascism than communism. American liberals, however, are more comfortable with Stalinsm than Hitlerism. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/16 "2008-10-17T13:37:17Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Because lefties screamed “Fascist!” so many times when it clearly wasn’t at all appropriate or reasonable that nobody could take it seriously any more. The lefties realized they had begun to sound foolish and stopped. And look how well the old “most liberal senator EVAR!!!” ploy is working the seven millionth time… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/17 "2008-10-17T13:38:11Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Because lefties screamed “Fascist!” so many times when it clearly wasn’t at all appropriate or reasonable that nobody could take it seriously any more. The lefties realized they had begun to sound foolish and stopped. No. The Right simply accused them of not being patriotic and most of the left just caved in ( in itself a sign of how we are leaning towards fascism ). America IS well on the road to fascism. We just aren’t supposed to admit it. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/18 "2008-10-17T13:45:37Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The wingnuts have been too busy speculating about Bush suspending elections due to “national emergency” to concentrate fully on a McCain fascist state. Get your newspeak right. Right-wingers are wingnuts. Left-wingers are moonbats. No, I don’t understand it either. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/19 "2008-10-17T13:45:42Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > What happened to the Dixie Chicks was fascism (albeit relatively mild compared with what we know fascism to be capable of). > . If what happened to the Dixie Chicks is fascism, then what is happening to Joe the Plumber is Stalinism. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332/20 "2008-10-17T13:47:53Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > **Why no scare of becoming fascist?** Because [_It Can’t Happen Here._](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Sarason) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-scare-of-becoming-fascist/468332.md?page=2)