# Why No Strong Push For Drug Reform? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722 "2012-02-04T03:01:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/41 "2012-02-06T20:12:39Z")
The sad truth mentioned upthread is that decriminalization won’t take place until the powers that be can get something out of it. It would take an enormous grassroots\* upheaval, a 80% or 90% hypermajority of the public at large, before enough politicians decided they could get more votes by defecting from the status quo. Until someone can get richer or more powerful from legalization than from maintaining criminalization, it’s probably not going to happen. \*I know-"grass"roots. Ha-ha. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/42 "2012-02-06T22:51:07Z")
> [@Invisible\_Chimp](#): > > Total drug decriminalization has reduced drug use in Portugal. Scare tactics that decriminalization will increase drug use have been shown to be false when we have a real life model that has worked. The War on Drugs is worse than the problem it’s trying to solve. I suspect some politician or party will adopt the Portugal system in the next decade and it will spread. Sadly, I think the US will be one of the last countries to try it. Like others have said, there are massive profits in drugs. If you decriminalize you decrease the need for prisons, police officers, security officials, etc. And they aren’t going to take that lying down. Plus nobody in politics wants to be seen as ‘soft on crime’. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/43 "2012-02-07T03:15:57Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You should. Gets you high faster. > > Tremendous _now_, because it’s illegal, (relatively) scarce and people can’t grow a couple plants on their windowsills to sustain their own consumption. > If it became legal, there’d be no more profit in it than in lettuce, and much less than in tobacco (because people smoke in packs/day while even the most assiduous stoners still count their daily joints in single digits) Yet lettuce farmers and tobacco manufacturers are around and make profits, do they not? > [@tomndebb](#): > > This really does not do anything to make your case. > > It is just as likely that fewer rich folks are “religious,” (a much higher predicter of the direction of one’s vote in that election), as that they are “more permissive,” (whatever that might mean in any given context). > > In addition, you are stilll only talking about a difference of 10% in votes. That is a wide margin for an election, but it is nearly meaningless in making a generalization about a group’s attitudes on issues. It represents only a small majority, not a trend for the whole population. (Contrast the nearly 2/3 of “Christians” who favored Prop 8 or the more than 8 in 10 weekly church-goers). I meant more permissive in the sense of being more tolerant of various thing. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/44 "2012-02-07T04:32:13Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I meant more permissive in the sense of being more tolerant of various thing. I know what you meant. What I pointed out was that your reference did not support your claim. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/45 "2012-02-07T14:48:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That said, I can agree with you that most homegrown pot would be ditchweed. But then, what most people smoke ATM is ditchweed too, so… This statement may have been true 15 years ago, but not today. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/46 "2012-02-07T17:30:44Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The sad truth mentioned upthread is that decriminalization won’t take place until the powers that be can get something out of it. It would take an enormous grassroots\* upheaval, a 80% or 90% hypermajority of the public at large, before enough politicians decided they could get more votes by defecting from the status quo. Until someone can get richer or more powerful from legalization than from maintaining criminalization, it’s probably not going to happen. > > \*I know-"grass"roots. Ha-ha. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Like others have said, there are massive profits in drugs. If you decriminalize you decrease the need for prisons, police officers, security officials, etc. And they aren’t going to take that lying down. Plus nobody in politics wants to be seen as ‘soft on crime’. Is there any evidence that the prison industry or more than a handful of law enforcement agencies actively lobby against decriminalization? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/47 "2012-02-07T17:38:27Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I can agree with you that most homegrown pot would be ditchweed. But then, what most people smoke ATM is ditchweed too, so… What’s wrong wih ditchweed? When I was smoking pot, I didn’t want to smoke the finest thai stick every day; sometimes a nice joint rolled from _leaves_ (gasp!!) would tilt my head just enough to be relaxing, but not so much that I was baked for hours. These days, I don’t think you can even buy leaves anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/48 "2012-02-07T18:42:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > 1. Drugs are bad > 2. You a pothead or something? (I don’t smoke anything, btw.) > 3. Drugs are bad > 4. Think of the children > 5. Drugs are bad I think this line of reasoning can be distilled even further: 1. The unsanctioned use of drugs is wrong because it is illegal 2. The unsanctioned use of drugs is illegal because it is wrong. > [@](#): > > Alcohol has a big, rich lobby group; weed doesn’t. Strangely, though, didn’t alcohol have a lobby in 1919? Of course, it didn’t help that many of the manufacturers were of German heritage, but still. > [@](#): > > And most importantly, marijuana is called a DRUG. Alcohol is not. Good point. Additionally, while cannabis isn’t a true narcotic its effects, to an outside observer, can resemble those of a narcotic. With either kind of drug the user may experience drowsiness, for example. And an overdose of either can being on a deep sleep, with the key difference being that in the case of opioids one might never wake up from that sleep. So it’s not altogether surprising that in the 19th century, when various cannabis preparations were used medicinally, that people came to regard it as a narcotic. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/49 "2012-02-07T18:48:29Z")
> [@BeaMyra](#): > > You can’t really say, “If alcohol is legal, why not pot?” > > … > > I don’t see how having the odd joint in the privacy of your own home is any worse than wine with dinner. But I’ve also see the damage alcohol has done and would not want to add another substance that will add more damage, along the same lines as alcohol. But this assumes that the desire for self-intoxication goes up in direct proportion to the number of options available. I think it more likely that, if cannabis and perhaps other drugs were made fully legal for adults, we’d see a significant decline in alcohol consumption–another reason the alcohol lobby fights tooth-and-nail against legalization or liberalization of cannabis. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/50 "2012-02-07T18:55:58Z")
> [@BeaMyra](#): > > Don’t forget there was a time when heroine, opium and a host of other drugs WERE legal and we had tons of problems. To expand on what **grude** said, what were the problems that made drug use a social issue, instead of just a personal one? If someone down the block was a laudanum addict, how would that have affected the neighbors when he didn’t need to rob them to sustain his habit? **Bea** , I don’t mean you specifically. But I’m convinced that a large portion of the “problems” that some people have with the toleration of drugs is essentially the fact that they don’t like them. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/51 "2012-02-07T19:08:36Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Yet lettuce farmers and tobacco manufacturers are around and make profits, do they not? True. But then, how many high-speed, anthracite-besuited Business School pinheads set out to make a killing in the adventurous world of lettuce growing ? Or, more to the point, how many would be willing to shower millions of dollars upfront on coin-operated politicians in D.C. so they could be allowed to start growing lettuce ? > [@Fear Itself](#): > > What’s wrong wih ditchweed? When I was smoking pot, I didn’t want to smoke the finest thai stick every day; sometimes a nice joint rolled from _leaves_ (gasp!!) would tilt my head just enough to be relaxing, but not so much that I was baked for hours. These days, I don’t think you can even buy leaves anymore. Nothing. In fact, even where it’s legalized I’d expect it’s still the most common thing, and I’d also expect most people would be plenty happy with their windowsill crops of ditchweed. Sort of like how people drink a lot more beers or lone glasses of wine at the end of the day than they shotgun fifths of vodka - getting good and fucked up is nice and all, but it’s not really something you do as a high volume/daily habit unless you have a Problem. Or you’re Keith Richards. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/52 "2012-02-07T22:08:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What’s wrong wih ditchweed? When I was smoking pot, I didn’t want to smoke the finest thai stick every day; sometimes a nice joint rolled from _leaves_ (gasp!!) would tilt my head just enough to be relaxing, but not so much that I was baked for hours. These days, I don’t think you can even buy leaves anymore. I’ve wondered about that myself. Possibly it has something to do with the overall decline of tobacco smoking. Until the late 1960s, cigarette smoking was so widespread among adults (and older minors) that one could safely assume that the typical MJ smoker had probably started with regular cigarettes before being introduced to cannabis. I suspect the market in MJ has moved towards stronger dope because most users actually don’t enjoy the actual smoking process, so they want to get the most bang per hit. Of course, that would be alongside the tendency for producers, dealers, and smugglers to prefer stronger varieties as a means of reducing their exposure to risk. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/53 "2012-02-07T23:13:50Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Strangely, though, didn’t alcohol have a lobby in 1919? Of course, it didn’t help that many of the manufacturers were of German heritage, but still. That’s true, but, 1. Alcoholism was genuinely a widespread social problem in 1919, more so than today. 19th century America was a place where men drank absolutely staggering amounts of alcohol; depending on what source you believe per capita consumption ran as high as a bottle and a half a WEEK, and the average for adult men was probably more like a bottle every three days. There were a lot of really, really bad boozehounds. Prohibition was a disaster, but the idea was reasonably noble; they had no idea it would go so wrong. 2. Temperance had the support of most established churches, and 3. The assumption on the part of a lot of people who supported Prohibition was that the power given to Congress would be used to ban hard liquor, which was perceived as being the problem - not beer and wine, which was not. When the Volstead Act was passed it was a shock to many people. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/54 "2012-02-08T14:48:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What’s wrong wih ditchweed? When I was smoking pot, I didn’t want to smoke the finest thai stick every day; sometimes a nice joint rolled from _leaves_ (gasp!!) would tilt my head just enough to be relaxing, but not so much that I was baked for hours. These days, I don’t think you can even buy leaves anymore. When it’s legal, and it must be one day, they can’t hold back the tide forever, there will be a huge range of products on the market. Pot straddles the line between tobacco and booze. There will be baked goods, which are already popular, different grades of smoking pot, perhaps chewing pot or snuff-like products too. And, sadly, there will be corporate advertising featuring cute cartoon animals, trying to get young people to use those products. Alcohol and tobacco have been legal for a long time and we still struggle with issues, both legal and social. We still fight over who should be allowed to smoke cigarettes where, for example. It’s going to be an interesting ride. ---
**Author:** ![OldLobsterClaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/eb9ed0/32.png) [@OldLobsterClaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldLobsterClaw)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722/55 "2012-03-27T00:09:37Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > The basic fact is that a vocal minority believes that marijuana constitutes a terrible threat to society, while pretty much everyone understands that nobody needs marijuana to have a happy and productive life. That is why I think the medicalization of marijuana is just a cheap back-door route that will never yield true liberalization of drug policy. If you’re an adult, then you should be able to have a joint just because you feel like it. You shouldn’t have to pretend to be sick and go to a pretend doctor to get a pretend diagnosis. Medical marijuana is, admittedly, a backdoor path to legalization. That in no way invalidates the fact that it’s a good treatment for a lot of ailments, with very few side effects. It holds a lot of potential for treatment of cancer, ADHD, seizure-inducing diseases, pain, PTSD and many other _real_ ailments. What legalization for medical uses does accomplish is to spread the knowledge that it isn’t A Bad Thing to be feared. The more rational among the pot haters come to realize that it’s a rather benign drug with lots of potential to do good. They’ll see that the sky doesn’t fall as more and more people, including friends and family, use it. As people come to understand that their fears are unfounded, that the laws are irrational, counterproductive and dangerous to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” they’ll be more accepting of the idea of legalization. The desire for altered states if a fundamental desire of humankind. Perfectly natural. It’s not a case of needing marijuana or whatever to be happy and productive. It’s not an indication of moral turpitude. It’s in many ways analogous to taking a vacation, or watching some sporting event. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-strong-push-for-drug-reform/611722.md?page=2)