# Why no surnames like "of Norwich" in English? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 6, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530 "2008-02-06T15:58:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/1 "2008-02-06T15:58:49Z")
Dutch, German, French and Italian (and probably a lot of others) have surnames of the form “van Gogh”, “von Bleuchher”, “du Pont” and “di Medici”, meaning either that the family is from a particular place, or a known group of people. Why has this not evolved, or if so not preserved, in English? Why have I never met “John of Avon,” or “Tim from Wokingham”? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/2 "2008-02-06T16:07:00Z")
The “von” and “du” prefix was usually a sign of nobility. It could make a big difference: Ludendorf was not taken seriously by other German generals, even though he showed a lot of ability, while von Hindenberg was, even though he was a far less innovative and effective general. You were given the prefix when you were ennobled and it became your family name (sometimes it was added to your family name). English nobles usually didn’t include “of” in their names, but stuck with the family name before they got their title. They were usually titled something like “Thomas Smith, Earl of Southwold,” so the family name remained “Smith.” Your son would be “James Smith, Second Earl of Southwold.” The “of Southwold” would not be your surname, but rather your title. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/3 "2008-02-06T16:12:41Z")
To some extent, it did. There were names like Atwell that are the exact parallels. Far more common, though, in English is to drop the preposition or article, so that John the Tanner became John Tanner, Geoffrey the Clerk became Jeffrey Clark, Waldo from Cheshire became Waldo Cheshire, etc. Bet you can’t guess what part of England the ancestors of Alvin York, Abraham Lincoln, William Warwick, etc., came from. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/4 "2008-02-06T16:32:03Z")
“Norwich” or “Norridge” _is_ a family name! Place-of-origin family names are very common in English. The four sources for English family names are - patronymics (Nixon, Johnson, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Jackson, Harrison, Wilson), place names (Cleveland, Washington, Lincoln), descriptives (Short), and occupational names (Carter, Taylor). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/5 "2008-02-06T17:30:47Z")
Anyone with sense wouldn’t want to proclaim “from Norwich” any more than strictly necessary 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/6 "2008-02-06T19:39:43Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] The “von” and “du” prefix was usually a sign of nobility. [/QUOTE] That’s not necessarily true; there are many families in Europe with a “von,” “de/du,” “di/del/della” or similar prefix in their names which are not noble, and have never been. These names evolved when family names came up in the Middle Ages as a consequence of increasing urbanization - if there were several people with the same name in a city, others would come up with whatever name they could think of to distinguish them. If one of them, for instancepont in French, just to make clear who they were referring to. Dupont is indeed the most frequent family name in France, and it doesn’t have anything to do with nobility. [The Master speaks.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_005.html) I was told that in German names, only the “von” of a family of nobility is abbreviated to “v.”, while the bourgeois (i.e., non-noble) “von” never gets shortened (or maybe it was the other way round - in any case, this is just a custom without any legal meaning whatsoever, so there’s nothing to prevent you from shortening your “von,” no matter if your ancestors were noble or not. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/7 "2008-02-06T20:44:53Z")
My family name is a place name from Scotland. As **Polycarp** notes, it’s not that such surnames don’t exist, just that the article or preposition isn’t part of the name, unlike the examples the OP gives from other European languages. That’s likely more a quirk of the English language than of naming customs. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/8 "2008-02-06T21:04:42Z")
Same as Northern Piper here, my family name is the place where our family originated. A friend of mine had a laugh one day when she booked a train journey for herself, and the ticket collector thought a beauty queen ; “_Miss Wellington_” would have her own car. ---
**Author:** ![Sebhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@Sebhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sebhal)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/9 "2008-02-07T14:17:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Anyone with sense wouldn’t want to proclaim “from Norwich” any more than strictly necessary Originally posted by GorillaMan That wouldn’t be ‘Location: Portman Road’ _Ipswich_ would it?! ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/10 "2008-02-07T14:57:53Z")
[QUOTE=Sebhal] That wouldn’t be ‘Location: Portman Road’ _Ipswich_ would it?! [/QUOTE] Do we have another Tractor Boy in our presence? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sebhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@Sebhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sebhal)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/11 "2008-02-07T16:28:41Z")
'Fraid not, no; just a near-neighbour of plain old Bury-St-Edmunds. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/12 "2008-02-07T17:15:59Z")
That’s virtually the Midlands 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/13 "2008-02-07T22:24:29Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] “Norwich” or “Norridge” _is_ a family name! Place-of-origin family names are very common in English. The four sources for English family names are - patronymics (Nixon, Johnson, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Jackson, Harrison, Wilson), place names (Cleveland, Washington, Lincoln), descriptives (Short), and occupational names (Carter, Taylor). [/QUOTE] That makes me wonder about mine. For 40 years I thought Osborne was a good, solid English name that referred to where some ancestor was “borne”. But I recently found this on Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Osborne, along with Osbourne and Osborn, is an adaptation of Asbjørn, an old Norse (viking) name which is pronounced “awsbyern.” In Norse, the name means “God Bear”, which is most likely a reference to the colossal _Ursus spelaeus_, an ancient bear that roamed the plains of Europe and died out about 10,000 years ago after the end of the last ice age. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-surnames-like-of-norwich-in-english/436530/14 "2008-02-07T22:40:45Z")
[QUOTE=Phase42] That makes me wonder about mine. For 40 years I thought Osborne was a good, solid English name that referred to where some ancestor was “borne”. But I recently found this on Wikipedia: [/QUOTE] And hence the name of the man in _The Hobbit_ who could shape-shift into a bear’s form: Beorn.