# Why No Voting Test? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 31, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999 "2012-07-31T22:39:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/41 "2012-08-01T20:31:22Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I personally have no doubt that there’s any subgroup of the population, outside of those with mental handicaps, who can’t learn to pass a basic political literacy test. We’re all humans with, effectively, the same DNA and the same abilities. No one is asking you to be a calculus whiz, just to demonstrate that you are aware of what you are doing and can form opinions of your own. OK then, who get’s to create the test? Who get’s to decide who get’s to create the test? Who get’s to decide who it is that get’s to decide who creates the test? (Turtles all the way down…) At each level there is an automatic bias. Unless we get to vote on who gets to create the test, and that would work if everyone had an equal vote regardless of their ability to pass a voting test. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/42 "2012-08-01T21:06:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :mad::mad::mad: No, it is **not,** sir. Society is something into which everyone is simply born, willy-nilly, and in which everyone is equally entitled to a “place” for that reason alone. Okay… So are you: Entitled to the land of your choice? Entitled to the woman/man of your choice? Entitled to the car of your choice? Entitled to the laws of your choice? No. You have a fair shot for everything that’s available, but you have to earn what you get. You aren’t entitled to almost anything. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/43 "2012-08-01T21:13:48Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Okay… So are you: > > Entitled to the land of your choice? > > Entitled to the woman/man of your choice? > > Entitled to the car of your choice? > > Entitled to the laws of your choice? > > No. You have a fair shot for everything that’s available, but you have to earn what you get. You aren’t entitled to almost anything. False equivalency much? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/44 "2012-08-01T21:44:07Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Say that the world becomes a better, more liberal place with better representation for all because of it. You say that. Nobody believes you. Now what? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/45 "2012-08-01T22:52:08Z")
So, Sage Rat, you’d be OK with someone like, well, me, who’s been voting for twenty years already, whose ancestors have been free white citizens since the founding of the republic, someone like me having his vote _taken away_–with\* me having my vote taken away\*–for failure to pass a test? If so, fine. I’ve thought about it, and I change my answer. Here’s the test, one question: 1. Define “marginal.” ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/46 "2012-08-01T23:49:49Z")
> [@digs](#): > > It’s sad that I’m now checking that date whenever I open a new thread. > Do you think that a “Join Date” of July 2012 will dog anyone who just joined? Or is it doubtful that any of the **7/12 Club** will be sticking around long enough for it to be an issue? > . Haven’t been around the board much this month. Did something significant happen i missed? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/47 "2012-08-01T23:54:22Z")
Yeah, a but load of racist trolls. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/48 "2012-08-01T23:59:57Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > IANAUSConstitutionalL (or any kind of L) but is there anything in the US Constitution or any other applicable act to prevent a state from making it a requirement to be a registered Republican (or Democrat) in order to vote (or to get on the ballot in the first place)? Yes and no. Where a party substantially controls a state or subdivision, it’s a denial of due process to restrict party membership. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/49 "2012-08-02T00:05:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The United States is a democratic republic Yes, the United States is a democratic republic. It’s also a republican democracy. Anyone who starts quibbling over these terms as if it has any relevance to modern policy decisions is trying to pull something over on you. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/50 "2012-08-02T00:09:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes and no. Where a party substantially controls a state or subdivision, it’s a denial of due process to restrict party membership. Forgot to cite. Here we go: [Smith v. Allwright.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_v._Allwright) ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/51 "2012-08-02T02:07:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Forgot to cite. Here we go: [Smith v. Allwright.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_v._Allwright) This is still based on discrimination due to race. Is there anything which would prevent restricting voters solely due to party affiliation? My “a republic, not a democracy” comment was in reference to a possible long-term campaign to get people to stop thinking of the US as a democracy, in order to increase acceptance of moves away from democracy towards oligarchy/plutocracy. Is there any basis for this or am I in CT territory? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/52 "2012-08-02T02:17:59Z")
Wait, are you asking if a state can say, “only Democrats can vote”? ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/53 "2012-08-02T02:22:24Z")
We already have a test that substantially acts in the role that the OP mentions. And its legal. It’s the naturalization test and English language test for green card holders. While some people [may be exempted](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=ffe2a3ac86aa3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=ffe2a3ac86aa3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD)from the English test,[the legal permanent resident spouse of a US citizen must pass said test before earning citizenship and thus the right to vote.](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=a0ffa3ac86aa3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=a0ffa3ac86aa3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD) The test taker already has the right of permanent residence, and the responsibility to pay taxes. Arguably by passing this test the most significant change is he/she gains the right to vote. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/54 "2012-08-02T04:00:19Z")
I don’t think a test is even necessary. If we want a smarter voting base, that’s easy to accomplish: just have campaign spending limits and don’t promote the election. By now I would hope that every American knows what day election day is. If they don’t, then they can find out. If they won’t, then why should they be helped? While I believe elections should be open to all, I do not understand the obsession with having a high turnout. It’s a voluntary act. Let those who are interested in voting vote, and quit nagging those who aren’t interested. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/55 "2012-08-02T05:00:08Z")
That was a fine post tomndebb. > [@tomndebb](#): > > People seem to vote for the people or parties who make them feel best served, regardless of any particular rational thought that may or may not lay behind it. One can find any number of people who can argue all day long about Keynes or the Chicago School, but the vast majority of people who choose one or the other do so because it seems to them that the side they pick resonates better with their personal experience. Similarly regarding socialism or capitalism or isolationism or interventionism. The more educated a person is, the more likely that that person can marshal a lot of information to support the position that he or she already chose on an emotional basis, but the odds of finding a person who started out with no preconceived beliefs, read all the information, reasoned their way through that information, and chose a particular course are probably less than .001% of the population. I agree, but I’ll throw in some caveats. 1. elucidator and I were Republicans as teenagers (IIRC). Still, I’m guessing that our switch had to do mostly with temperament, though in my case it happened in stages. That said… I would argue that a utilitarian outlook, intellectual honesty and empirics from the 1970s onwards would naturally lead one to a liberal (or rather left or center-left) perspective. In the days of Bentham one might argue differently, sort of. But not everyone has utilitarian leanings. 1a. Though there were liberal Republicans in the 1950s-1970s, and moderate ones extending perhaps to 2006 at the national level. And of course there still are liberal, moderate and conservative Democrats. 1. Empirically, a successful Presidency has a big effect on the future voting behavior of those in their late teens or early twenties. Apparently a lot of our political preferences gel at that age. 2. Notwithstanding #1, conservatives reportedly have a more complicated morality than liberals do – for example utilitarianism is arguably a simplistic outlook. 3. I’m wondering whether a two party system is ossifying: a multiparty system might be more _educational_ for the electorate insofar as it provides opportunities for plausible _shifts_ in perspective. You don’t have to leap to one side or another of a big divide. * * * The OP: the illiterate have interests as well that deserve representation in some way. And Fox/CNN/network news have a big audience among the college educated, though much of their reporting isn’t very good. Most of the college educated here read neither the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, nor the Washington Post, never mind the Economist. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/56 "2012-08-02T10:37:58Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Notwithstanding #1, conservatives reportedly have a more complicated morality than liberals do – for example utilitarianism is arguably a simplistic outlook. More complicated does not necessitate being better or correct though. There’s been a long tradition of capitalist arguments in favour of Utilitarianism (and they’re quite sound when addressing protectionism, trade tariffs and other such schemes, in my view). Mill, [Mises](http://mises.org/books/socialism/part4_ch27.aspx) and Hazlitt spring to mind. Unfortunately, Mill supported imperialistic policies in service of his Utilitarian view, adopting the same neoliberal or neocon creed of salvationary militarism (Chomsky talks about it [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77U1tlAyWVA)). > [@Sage Rat](#): > > Say that the world becomes a better, more liberal place with better representation for all because of it. Say stepping on a crack breaks your mother’s back. > [@adaher](#): > > I do not understand the obsession with having a high turnout. The validity of a democratic representative government derives from its ability to serve the interests of the majority of citizens (countering systemic bias - Mises claimed women’s interests would be best served without their enfranchisement). A democratic government cannot be said to be legitimate if it represents the interests of a narrow minority of citizens. Unfortunately, under a simple plurality system (I think the US has sometimes been called a “duoarchy”), it seems minority support for the government is inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/57 "2012-08-02T10:49:50Z")
But do the votes of the apathetic really add to legitimacy? They certainly don’t add to the wisdom of the electorate. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/58 "2012-08-02T19:31:59Z")
Is difficulty participating the same as apathy? ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/59 "2012-08-02T20:09:07Z")
IMHO, voting should be compulsory, on a national holiday. I also don’t see why the purple-dyed thumb method wouldn’t work here to prevent fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999/60 "2012-08-02T21:03:22Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > The fact is, it wasn’t administered fairly when we had it That’s not a theoretical argument, though. You could even use it the other way, we don’t know what would happen if there were real tests, not just used as pretexts for disenfranchising people you’ve already decided are not to be allowed to vote. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Okay… So are you: > > Entitled to the land of your choice? > > Entitled to the woman/man of your choice? > > Entitled to the car of your choice? Yes, for land and car. At least in a post-scarcity economy. And the reason I’m not in the real world has nothing to do with the supposed virtue of earning things. I’m not entitled to the woman of my choice because people have equal agency to each other (ethically speaking). I’m entitled to my choice of the women who would choose me, if any. But you don’t earn people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-voting-test/629999.md?page=4)