# Why No Westerns? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 31, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799 "2015-12-31T04:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/41 "2016-01-01T04:14:38Z")
It was the western states where women in America first got the vote. The first woman in Congress was from Montana (Jeannette Rankin). There aren’t a whole lot of movies or tv shows on any part of 19th century life The farther you get away, the less remembered something is. Quick, who were the Presidential candidates in 1888, who won and what were the main campaign issues? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/42 "2016-01-01T05:07:19Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > It was the western states where women in America first got the vote. The first woman in Congress was from Montana (Jeannette Rankin). > There aren’t a whole lot of movies or tv shows on any part of 19th century life The farther you get away, the less remembered something is. Quick, who were the Presidential candidates in 1888, who won and what were the main campaign issues? Cleveland vs. Harrison. Cleveland thought he was a shoe in but Harrison said he was ‘low energy’ and took the win thanks to heavy TV advertising. The main issues were death and taxes. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/43 "2016-01-01T09:26:06Z")
Might part of it be that nowadays series are being made with an eye to international sales/syndication not just local markets? While the Western was also popular in some foreign markets (Italy & Spain, for instance) in general it’s the American Myth and I’m not sure how well it sells in e.g. China. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/44 "2016-01-01T09:49:26Z")
> [@Richard\_John\_Marcej](#): > > In fact, I don’t think any genre can come close to the dominance that westerns had on American TV in **1959-60** prime time schedule. In that season alone there were **31** westerns on the schedule! > > ABC had 13: > **Colt .45 > Broken Arrow > Maverick > The Lawmen > The Rebel > The Alaskans > Cheyenne > Sugarfoot > Bronco > The Life and Legend of Wyatt Earp > The Rifleman > The Man from Blackhawk > Black Saddle** > > NBC had 10: > **Riverboat > Overland Trail > Tales of Wells Fargo > Laramie > Wagon Train > Wichita Town > Law of the Plainsman > Bat Masterson > Bonanza > The Deputy** > > CBS had 8: > **The Texan > Johnny Ringo > Dick Powell’s Zane Grey Theater > Rawhide > Hotel de Paree > Wanted Dead or Alive > Have Gun - Will Travel > Gunsmoke** And thus a national mythology was created, a genocide unquestioned, sterilized and looped back as a triumph of American destiny and achievement. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/45 "2016-01-01T17:01:29Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > And thus a national mythology was created, a genocide unquestioned, sterilized and looped back as a triumph of American destiny and achievement. Which was unravelled in the late-'60s and early-'70s, and up to the present. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/46 "2016-01-01T17:10:07Z")
Indeed, thank goodness Americans got past that rugged, individualist John Wayne nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/47 "2016-01-01T17:27:45Z")
I have always been fascinated about this period of history…there is something about the (American) myth of moving West, starting a new life, reinventing yourself. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/48 "2016-01-01T17:49:41Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Indeed, thank goodness Americans got past that rugged, individualist John Wayne nonsense. :rolleyes: Yeah, you wish. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/49 "2016-01-01T19:11:01Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > And thus a national mythology was created, a genocide unquestioned, sterilized and looped back as a triumph of American destiny and achievement. That happened way before TV series were the rage, and before movies were invented. That sort of mythology goes back to the literature of the time (penny novels, etc), and much of it was perpetuated in our schools in the guise of ‘history’ classes. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/50 "2016-01-01T20:08:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Might part of it be that nowadays series are being made with an eye to international sales/syndication not just local markets? While the Western was also popular in some foreign markets (Italy & Spain, for instance) in general it’s the American Myth and I’m not sure how well it sells in e.g. China. Karl May was huge in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/51 "2016-01-01T21:29:35Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > That happened way before TV series were the rage, and before movies were invented. That sort of mythology goes back to the literature of the time (penny novels, etc), and much of it was perpetuated in our schools in the guise of ‘history’ classes. Indeed. The dominance of the Western in mid-20th-century film and TV was derived from the preexisting popularity of the _print_ Western since back at the turn of that century. The myth was already there, the TV Westerns merely reflected it. And a description of the natives as _“the merciless Indian Savages”_ is in the text of the \*&^% Declaration of Independence in 1776 – the notion that the Anglo settlers were annointed by either God or Destiny to take over the continent and damned be the natives was there even before there was a country. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Indeed, thank goodness Americans got past that rugged, individualist John Wayne nonsense. FWIW, if you check out the John Wayne/John Ford Western _Fort Apache_, you will see in _ **1948** _ Native Americans portrayed as honorable nations reluctantly waging a war of resistance, and the big problem being asshat white Easterners. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/52 "2016-01-01T23:03:57Z")
Thye’ve been replaced in the culture by police procedurals. BTW, if no one else on this thread will recommend **Hell on Wheels** , I will! If they ever decide to do **John Carter** again and do it right, [Anson Mount](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0609845/) would be a lock for the lead. **Hell on Wheels** isn’t perfect–for one thing, we see way more of Chris Heyerdahl naked than we should–but it’s damned entertaining! ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/53 "2016-01-02T00:52:06Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Indeed. The dominance of the Western in mid-20th-century film and TV was derived from the preexisting popularity of the _print_ Western since back at the turn of that century. The myth was already there, the TV Westerns merely reflected it. I cut out a section on the history of westerns from my overlong post. The western emerged as the dominant genre just after the Civil War, when dime novelists began mythologizing living figures like Buffalo Bill. We think that paperbacks started around WWII, but all those dime novels were cheap paperbacks that sold to the equivalent base-level audience. The dime novels were killed off the pulp magazines, and hundreds of western pulps flooded the market. (And crossovers. Western romance titles included Ranch Romances, Rodeo Romances, Cowboy Romances, Far West Romances, Real Western Romances, Romance Western, North-West Romances, Rangeland Romances, Romance Round-Up, Romantic Range, and Rangeland Love.) Then came the lines of western paperbacks post-war, an order or two of magnitude larger than science fiction, behind only mysteries. You can’t explain the loss of westerns from oversaturation. People love more of the same. You can only explain it by cutting the cultural connection. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/54 "2016-01-08T17:45:05Z")
A new Western opens today in a limited release. _Diablo_, starring Scott Eastwood. I hope it gets to a theater around here. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/55 "2016-01-08T18:05:57Z")
They aren’t politically correct. Many of the best Western stories involved brave settlers or the Cavalry fighting off the noble savages. Rescuing the women that were taken for whatever unstated purpose. Circling the wagons to defend against injun attacks. There was always at least one flaming arrow that set a wagon on fire. Take away those key stories and you can’t make the John Ford Cavalry trilogy again. John Wayne comforting the displaced Native Americans might be PC but it doesn’t sell movie tickets. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/56 "2016-01-08T19:04:33Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Karl May was huge in Germany. Hitler liked his books, did he not? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/57 "2016-01-08T19:10:13Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Quite true that the average audience would be repulsed if they were shown a series that accurately depicted what life was like in the Old West. > > Americans like to think _ **Little House on the Prairie** _ and _ **Dr Quinn, Medicine Woman** _ showed the way it was. They’re in love with a myth and know nothing of the reality. Police and hospital dramas have virtually nothing to do with reality either, but they’re still popular. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/58 "2016-01-08T19:12:57Z")
My two favorite westerns of recent years are hardly traditional to the genre: _A Million Ways To Die in the West_ - the “hero” is acutely aware what a backwater shithole time and place he’s living in is. _Good For Nothing_ - a cowboy bandit with erectile dysfunction. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/59 "2016-01-08T19:15:31Z")
It’s been a mixed bag for movie westerns lately. _Django Unchained_ and _True Grit_ hit it big, but _Cowboys and Aliens_ was essentially a bomb, I think, and the _Lone Ranger_ may be one of the biggest bombs ever. The comedy western has had it rough lately. _Rango_ was not a hit, and I think Seth Macfarlane’s movie tanked. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Hitler liked his books, did he not? You know who _else_ liked his books?! Oh, wait … never mind. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799/60 "2016-01-08T19:25:18Z")
Well, if you think about it, if you want a story involving good vs. evil while going off into a mostly unknown frontier, most people will mostly likely think of sci-fi space operas more than westerns. The former benefits, as well, from having the Injuns being an alien race (I always wondered if the Klingons were stand ins for the Sioux) and therefore can shelter yourself from those type of concerns. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-no-westerns/741799.md?page=4)