# Why not an anti-NRA lobby? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061 "2017-11-08T16:59:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/62 "2017-11-17T04:30:38Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > There’s no intrinsic contradiction between owning a gun or hiring an armed bodyguard on one hand and pursuing gun control legislation on the other hand. I can do a thing I wish I didn’t have to do. So the “I’ve got mine, so screw you” argument is not a contradiction? Got it. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/63 "2017-11-17T18:35:43Z")
Directly opposing gun ownership with something like an anti-NRA might push the needle a little one way but unless it can totally overcome the NRA it can’t ever hope to win, whatever that means. Now, if someone were to create an NRA-like organization for those people who want the benefits but aren’t as hardline in their politics we might see a reduction in the NRA membership. Is there such an organization? Because I might join that. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/64 "2017-11-17T19:08:48Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Directly opposing gun ownership with something like an anti-NRA might push the needle a little one way but unless it can totally overcome the NRA it can’t ever hope to win, whatever that means. > > Now, if someone were to create an NRA-like organization for those people who want the benefits but aren’t as hardline in their politics we might see a reduction in the NRA membership. Is there such an organization? Because I might join that. There have been several. Usually they masquerade as a pro gun rights org but after some time are outed as more of a “gun control lite” sort of org. AHSA and ACRGO are two recent examples. From this [link](http://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/11/12/why-fake-moderate-gun-owner-orgs-like-arcog-fail-every-time/): > [@](#): > > "So orgs like the old AHSA and the new ACRGO are answers to a question that anti-gunners are asking (and anti-gunners are fantasizing that gun owners are asking, but no gun owners are actually asking): “Where can I find a less effective alternative to the NRA?” And this is the primary reason that they fail, every single time. > > The other big reason that so-called “reasonable” gun owner groups and “reasonable” gun control efforts fail is that gun people know from past experience that “reasonable” is, by design, a moving target. Once “universal background checks” are the law then “reasonable gun regulation” will be redefined to include magazine capacity limits, and then assault weapons bans, and then semi-auto bans, and so on. This is not an example of the “slippery slope” fallacy, either. Gun control people have been quite open about their strategy of “if we can just get this or that restriction passed as a first step, then we can do more later. It doesn’t matter if it’s not very effective, we just need to make a start”. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/65 "2017-11-18T15:57:25Z")
I think the NRA will eventually spawn a real anti-NRA lobby. It might be a direct anti-gun group but my guess is that it will probably be something with a less threatening name like Move-on dot org Version 2.0 and tackle a range of issues. Or maybe a stop the violence coalition. The NRA seems powerful but in reality its unwillingness to compromise is doing to its cause what the Tea Party and Alt-Right have done to Republicans. They’ve removed its genetic diversity and made it more susceptible to collapse. They’re as ferocious in their fight for gun rights as ever, but by going to the extreme, they’re pushing away moderates who would be willing to support most gun rights and they’re making it more likely that, over time, an entire generation of people question whether we need guns as much as the NRA claims we do. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/66 "2017-11-18T17:27:43Z")
There’s a fundamental asymmetry between the gun rights crowd and the gun control crowd. Most of the people who own guns are rather concerned about the possibility that they might someday be forbidden to own some or most classes of firearms. They have skin in the game in other words. By contrast, although there are doubtless many people who are concerned about firearms and actively work for gun control, gun control is much more an “astroturf” movement, pushed by think tanks and funded by people like Bloomberg. Yet (doubtless as the result of deliberate propaganda) the gun control faction claims to be the voice of countless millions of Americans appalled by gun violence while the pro-gun side is dismissed as “The N.R.A.”, hinted to be merely a shill for the gun manufacturers. Back in the early 20th century when the Prohibition movement was gaining steam, the same tactic was used: denouncing anyone opposed to Prohibition as in the pockets of the saloon owners and distilleries. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/67 "2017-11-18T21:47:17Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > There’s a fundamental asymmetry between the gun rights crowd and the gun control crowd. > > Most of the people who own guns are rather concerned about the possibility that they might someday be forbidden to own some or most classes of firearms. They have skin in the game in other words. By contrast, although there are doubtless many people who are concerned about firearms and actively work for gun control, gun control is much more an “astroturf” movement … That’s a strange way to describe this asymmetry. There are other ways it can be viewed. For instance, gun owners can be viewed as simply wanting their toys just because, and being concerned that there’s no really persuasive argument to answer the question “because what?” but plenty of evidence of the tragic downsides. The pro-gun crowd even has the audacity to argue that gun control measures might pose an inconvenience to “law-abiding gun owners”, as if “inconvenience” was an unacceptable tradeoff for reducing the highest rate of gun deaths and injuries in the civilized world. And trying to argue that gun control advocates have no “skin in the game” is the epitome of absurdity. Seeking to reduce the risk of being shot is a legitimate personal concern. Reducing the extraordinary rate of gun violence in the most gun-happy gun-populous country in the world – a state of affairs that scholars of gun violence have called a national epidemic – is a legitimate personal concern. And those who have lost loved ones to preventable gun violence have a more than legitimate personal grievance. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/68 "2017-11-18T23:23:45Z")
Thing is your always going to have people who want a gun for; 1. Personal protection. 2. Hunting. 3. Sport. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/69 "2017-11-19T01:01:41Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Thing is your always going to have people who want a gun for; > > 1. Personal protection. > 2. Hunting. > 3. Sport. How could that possibly matter when people against personal gun ownership lump all … > [@wolfpup](#): > > …gun owners can be viewed as simply wanting their toys just because, and being concerned that there’s no really persuasive argument to answer the question “because what?” ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/70 "2017-11-19T01:40:10Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Thing is your always going to have people who want a gun for; > > 1. Personal protection. > 2. Hunting. > 3. Sport. And your point? There will always be people who want guns for those things, and they will always have them. This is, again, the typical take-away-all-guns boogeyman that no one has ever proposed. The one caveat there is the “personal protection” one. In the other categories, there is no ambiguity about what a “hunter” or the activity of “hunting” is. There is no ambiguity about what a legitimate sport shooter is – it’s someone who belongs to a recognized sport shooting organization. These are the basic rules under which most people in other countries legitimately own guns. But someone wanting a gun for “personal protection” must be … what? A “person”? There’s a lot of those around, and some of them are insane, mentally unstable, or get angry a lot. This seems rather a broad catch-all, which is why this is the excuse that covers most of the guns involved in abuses, accidents, and homicides. It’s generally justified by an arms-race mentality that says you must have a gun because everyone else has one, and which the NRA keeps trying to hammer into people’s brains with the “good guy with a gun” trope, as if the more guns there are floating around in society the safer everyone will be. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/71 "2017-11-19T02:01:17Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > There will always be people who want guns for those things, and they will always have them. Oh, so you now you’re _not_ saying: > [@wolfpup](#): > > …gun owners can be viewed as simply wanting their toys just because, and being concerned that there’s no really persuasive argument to answer the question “because what?” ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/72 "2017-11-19T02:47:37Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Cokie Roberts on NPR this morning was discussing the history of the NRA and gun legislation, and said something that really struck a chord with me: that you have to give them credit – they organize, they lobby, they vote. > > And I had an epiphany: why can’t their opponents do the same? Why can’t there be an anti-NRA, that organizes all those who are appalled by gun violence and want to make a change? Do you not realize that guns are not the problem? Never have been, never will be. How about organizing an anti-Insanity league, dedicated to stopping people who want to murder other people? That would make more sense. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/73 "2017-11-19T03:14:05Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Do you not realize that guns are not the problem? Never have been, never will be. > > How about organizing an anti-Insanity league, dedicated to stopping people who want to murder other people? That would make more sense. If guns are not the problem, the US must have [a tremendously disproportionate number of insane people](http://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_3672_americas_insane_rate_of_gun_homicide_in_perspective_n.jpg), then. Is it something in the water? ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/74 "2017-11-19T19:14:14Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > …the US must have [a tremendously disproportionate number of insane people](http://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_3672_americas_insane_rate_of_gun_homicide_in_perspective_n.jpg), then. Is it something in the water? Undoubtedly! But I’m leaning more towards the food supply. A good demographic study would probably show the crazies wanting to enact stricter gun controls far outnumber the ones who just want to kill people. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/75 "2017-11-19T19:39:22Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > If guns are not the problem, the US must have [a tremendously disproportionate number of insane people](http://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_3672_americas_insane_rate_of_gun_homicide_in_perspective_n.jpg), then. Is it something in the water? That, I don’t know. I do believe that if the news media quit spotlighting those people, we would have fewer incidents. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/76 "2017-11-20T04:51:31Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > If guns are not the problem, the US must have [a tremendously disproportionate number of insane people](http://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_3672_americas_insane_rate_of_gun_homicide_in_perspective_n.jpg), then. Is it something in the water? Three points: [ol] [li]How many of those homicides are committed by career criminals like gang members and drug dealers, who apparently have no trouble obtaining illegal items? Illegal != unavailable.[/li][li]Given the total number of armed people in the USA, isn’t the danger rate per gun owner very low?[/li][li]How much positive utility of owning guns, of what _didn’t_ happen because they were there, is essentially immeasurable short of visiting a parallel universe where everything is the same except for the absence of guns?[/li][/ol] If you’re going to abandon the idea that people who’ve never done anything wrong shouldn’t be punished for the misdeeds of others, and adopt a strict standard of utility based on what people statistically **might** do, then frankly, possessing testicles is a stronger risk factor of violence and murder than gun ownership. P.S.: yes, I **need** a gun. Or at least you have no right to decide that for me. ---
**Author:** ![DUCKofDEATH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6f9a4e/32.png) [@DUCKofDEATH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DUCKofDEATH)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/77 "2017-11-20T06:22:15Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > If guns are not the problem, the US must have [a tremendously disproportionate number of insane people](http://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_3672_americas_insane_rate_of_gun_homicide_in_perspective_n.jpg), then. Is it something in the water? [Drug crime](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/12/ms-13-gang-members-charged-in-series-murders-drug-crimes-authorities-say.html) and crime caused by [illegals](http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime_summary.html) accounts for much of what we’re experiencing. The great majority of gun owners are responsible and law abiding. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/78 "2017-11-20T08:03:59Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > A good demographic study would probably show the crazies wanting to enact stricter gun controls far outnumber the ones who just want to kill people. Yep; there are vast numbers of such crazy people across the developed world, and even the majority of people in the US. These crazy people also think there should be _driving_ licenses before a person is allowed to operate a car! Where will it end?! > [@DUCKofDEATH](#): > > Drug crime and crime caused by illegals accounts for much of what we’re experiencing. The great majority of gun owners are responsible and law abiding. Firstly, other developed countries have drug crime, and legal and illegal immigration at the same or higher proportion than the US. But secondly, a lot of the reason this conversation has come up is because of how common mass shootings are, and the number of particularly high-bodycount shootings recently. There’s no evidence these had anything to do with drugs or illegals. And people are really searching hard for such connections, so they can deflect away from the obvious. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/79 "2017-11-20T08:04:28Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Thing is your always going to have people who want a gun for; > > 1. Personal protection. > 2. Hunting. > 3. Sport. And it’s entirely possible to have controls that still allow them to. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/80 "2017-11-20T09:20:10Z")
Not really. Personal protection is the most important purpose of firearms and it’s precisely the reason it’s hardest to get one in places that have strict gun control. And most of those nations prohibit nonlethal personal protection devices as well. They really don’t like self defense in some places I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061/81 "2017-11-20T09:56:16Z")
Erm, excluded middle? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-an-anti-nra-lobby/801061.md?page=5)