# Why NOT bow to King Abdullah? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581 "2009-06-03T14:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/181 "2009-06-08T00:07:56Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I voted for him, and campaigned for him, and I think it was the wrong thing to do. Are you _offended_? Because even if I thought he’d made a mistake, I’m not sure I’d come within a million miles of taking offense. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/182 "2009-06-08T01:24:30Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I voted for him, and campaigned for him, and I think it was the wrong thing to do. Am I in the lunatic fringe of the right wing? It’s the lunatic fringe of the right wing that has made it an issue and has sold offense as a commodity. Did you see it happen live and jump up from your chair shouting “Zounds! No American President should ever bow to the leader of any other country!” Or, as is more likely, did you see a news report and get manipulated into a position? For instance, in the linked video of Bush 43 receiving some bling from the King, W kissed him on both cheeks. I never heard anything about that until I saw the video and nobody made anything of it. But that seems a lot more obsequious than bowing. Sorry, but this is part and parcel with the ranting and raving about Obama calling the Qur’an “holy”. That just seems rational - when speaking before an audience of Muslims in a Muslim country about their holy book, it is only polite to call the book they consider holy, “holy”. Anything else would just be dickishness. And we’ve had eight years of that. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/183 "2009-06-08T01:27:19Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > It’s the lunatic fringe of the right wing that has made it an issue and has sold offense as a commodity. Did you see it happen live and jump up from your chair shouting “Zounds! No American President should ever bow to the leader of any other country!” Or, as is more likely, did you see a news report and get manipulated into a position? Neither. I saw a picture in an online news account, which, IIRC, made no mention of the appropriateness of the gesture. I made my own little mind up all by myself. Sorry to disappoint you. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/184 "2009-06-08T02:06:34Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Here’s my take on it. > > I’ll be damned if I bow to ANY king, queen or other foreign noble. I’m the equal of any and all people on this planet, and expect to be treated as such. > > The President of the United States, in his role of Head of State, is the representative of the People (and me, as one of them) in dealings with foreign nations and dignitaries. He’s the equal of any and all men on the planet, just as our nation is the equal of any and all nations on the planet, and he has no business going around bowing to anyone as the representative of the population of the United States. Oh Christ, its simply a matter of respect, not to be construed as a means of subservience. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/185 "2009-06-08T02:08:12Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Oh Christ, its simply a matter of respect, not to be construed as a means of subservience. Then why was the gesture not returned? Does he not respect Obama? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/186 "2009-06-08T03:36:00Z")
This thread has been hilarious to read. Have any of the “hur hur hur, they don’t rule me so I wouldn’t bow to them and I wouldn’t call them anything but ‘hey yo’” types have \*\*actually been \*\* in the presence of dignitaries? Yap all you want, you know you’ll “bow” to peer pressure and act as is expected of you. Not like you’d be afforded the opportunity, anyway. I’m not religious - while I’m not going to call the pope “Your holiness the Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Christ Successor of the Prince of the Apostles Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church Primate of Italy Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City Servant of the Servants of God”, I’m not going to call him “hey Mr. Ratzinger”, either. Not unless I wanted to come across as a boorish cad ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/187 "2009-06-08T04:13:54Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > This thread has been hilarious to read. > > Have any of the “hur hur hur, they don’t rule me so I wouldn’t bow to them and I wouldn’t call them anything but ‘hey yo’” types have \*\*actually been \*\* in the presence of dignitaries? Yap all you want, you know you’ll “bow” to peer pressure and act as is expected of you. Not like you’d be afforded the opportunity, anyway. > > I’m not religious - while I’m not going to call the pope “Your holiness the Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Christ Successor of the Prince of the Apostles Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church Primate of Italy Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City Servant of the Servants of God”, I’m not going to call him “hey Mr. Ratzinger”, either. Not unless I wanted to come across as a boorish cad But would you kiss the ring? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/188 "2009-06-08T04:27:02Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > But would you kiss the ring? Only if I get to ride around in his cool car. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/189 "2009-06-08T04:30:22Z")
[QUOTE=Rumor\_Watkins] Have any of the “hur hur hur, they don’t rule me so I wouldn’t bow to them and I wouldn’t call them anything but ‘hey yo’” types have actually been in the presence of dignitaries? Yap all you want, you know you’ll “bow” to peer pressure and act as is expected of you. Not like you’d be afforded the opportunity, anyway. [/QUOTE] Well…a couple of things. First off, no…I wouldn’t bow. I’d shake hands. Not that the situation is ever likely to come up wrt me being in the presence of royalty. I HAVE been in the presence of some relatively famous people (including an actual President…several times actually in one case), however, and while I think some level of deference (to the position, if not the person) is necessary, bowing and scraping is not really my style. The second thing is…I’m NOT the President, so even if I was going to bow (heh) to peer pressure for my own lowly self, I don’t think the President, ANY President, should. After all, the President is the peer of any ruling monarch, Prime Minister, President or Ruling Thug(ARR) out there. BTW, that show on body language was on again last night on Discovery…it was pretty interesting what people give away through body language, and how serious politicians take body language. They actually had a number of clips of Obama on the show that I had forgotten about…but they were all from before he became president. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/190 "2009-06-08T04:41:35Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’m NOT the President, so even if I was going to bow (heh) to peer pressure for my own lowly self, I don’t think the President, ANY President, should. After all, the President is the peer of any ruling monarch, Prime Minister, President or Ruling Thug(ARR) out there. I think the pressure to conform to a standardized regime of formally recognized protocol would be enhanced if it wasn’t merely your self that you were representing, but an entire nation state. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/191 "2009-06-08T04:50:13Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > This thread has been hilarious to read. > > Have any of the “hur hur hur, they don’t rule me so I wouldn’t bow to them and I wouldn’t call them anything but ‘hey yo’” types have \*\*actually been \*\* in the presence of dignitaries? Yap all you want, you know you’ll “bow” to peer pressure and act as is expected of you. Not like you’d be afforded the opportunity, anyway. I have met a Cardinal (“Your Eminence” but no ring kissing, as I am not Catholic, so I shook his hand), a number of Elected reps ( "Congresswoman, “Senator”), and a Prince of a nation that no longer has royalty, so I although did say “pleased to meet you, your Highness”, I only did a little head bobble nod, not a bow. But pretty much, I did more or less as expected, although a few were going to a bow or a curtsy to the Prince. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/192 "2009-06-09T06:52:28Z")
I always though of the USA as the great and proud republican nation founded on a certain disgust for royalty and all that it entails. If it is true that your president has started to bow to kings, that is all past. Just another nation. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/193 "2009-06-09T13:59:38Z")
What I don’t get is why American presidents have taken to using military salute. It looks terrible. I just saw a photo of Obama, Sarkozy and others on the D-Day commemoration ceremonies where they are walking past some flags and Obama is the only one who is saluting militarily and it makes him look totally goofy. I was always taught that you only salute when you are wearing uniform and head cover. That should be the real discussion and not whether Obama lowering his head so that the king can put a collar over it qualifies as a bow and/or as a sign of submission. That is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/194 "2009-06-09T14:30:05Z")
[QUOTE=sailor] That should be the real discussion and not whether Obama lowering his head so that the king can put a collar over it qualifies as a bow and/or as a sign of submission. That is just silly. [/QUOTE] It’s silly to YOU. Shocking as this might seem, not everyone else finds it so. > [@](#): > > What I don’t get is why American presidents have taken to using military salute. It looks terrible. I just saw a photo of Obama, Sarkozy and others on the D-Day commemoration ceremonies where they are walking past some flags and Obama is the only one who is saluting militarily and it makes him look totally goofy. I was always taught that you only salute when you are wearing uniform and head cover. It’s become traditional…similar to other Presidential traditions (like getting sworn in on the bible). I think it was Regan who started this one, and they have all followed his lead since. While you find the bowing discussion ‘silly’, I have to say that I find this one rather silly, personally. It’s just one of the quirky traditions that get started and that everyone seems to go along with. Personally, I thought Obama would break with this one and maybe start a new one…but it doesn’t seem he is going to go that route. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/195 "2009-06-10T01:51:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have met a Cardinal (“Your Eminence” but no ring kissing, as I am not Catholic, so I shook his hand), a number of Elected reps ( "Congresswoman, “Senator”), and a Prince of a nation that no longer has royalty, so I although did say “pleased to meet you, your Highness”, I only did a little head bobble nod, not a bow. But pretty much, I did more or less as expected, although a few were going to a bow or a curtsy to the Prince. Just curious – what nation was it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/196 "2009-06-10T05:58:08Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Just curious – what nation was it? Italy. iirc. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/197 "2009-06-10T12:41:03Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > He bowed to Queen Elizabeth (slightly), and even to Prince Philip (more of a nod). He’s just a humble man. No he’s not - he’s God, sort of, and above the US and the world. [Cite](http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/jromano/2009/06/08/newsweek-ends-all-pretense-of-objectivity-as-editor-evan-thomas-calls-obama-god/). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/198 "2009-06-10T13:03:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No he’s not - he’s God, sort of, and above the US and the world. [Cite](http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/jromano/2009/06/08/newsweek-ends-all-pretense-of-objectivity-as-editor-evan-thomas-calls-obama-god/). So a Newsweek editor, in a fit of hyperbole, says that Obama is “sort of God”? [Your boy Bush, on the other hand, claimed that God chose him to rule the free world.](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html). Dude. You voted for a guy who says he hears voices. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/199 "2009-06-10T13:40:39Z")
Do you have a real cite for the Bush claim? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/200 "2009-06-10T13:45:27Z")
By that, I mean that you have the Telegraph claiming that the BBC says that the Palestinian foreign minister allege that the interpreter told him that Bush claimed that the Palestinians should have their own state, and that Bush should fight terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then you badly misrepresent the claim at the end of it. So basically, nobody is reliable at pretty much every step of the way. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581.md?page=11)