# Why NOT bow to King Abdullah? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581 "2009-06-03T14:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/21 "2009-06-03T16:22:40Z")
Oh btw, [here’s Bush doing the same thing and more](http://www.cephas-library.com/nwo_bush_goes_to_shinto_worship.html), yet no Rush Limbaugh and Hannity led attacks. Funny how that works. The double standard for Obama is annoying and youd think dopers would know better. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/22 "2009-06-03T16:24:06Z")
I had a long post ready but decided that it would be easier to just agree with everyone that it is just that the Republicans hate Obama. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/23 "2009-06-03T16:31:34Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > My interpretation was consistent with my understanding that the US flag is never flown in a “lower” position than any other nation’s flag. (Well, in diplomatic type situations, not Olympic medal ceremonies.) For instance, in some situations it is common for visiting countries to allow their flag to be displayed lower than or behind their host’s flag, or to dip their flag as a sign of respect when passing a head of state in review. My understanding is that the US refuses to do that. I may be mistaken, but I don’t think I am. It’s true at least as far as the Olympics goes, but we at least had a good reason for starting the tradition: > [@](#): > > When NBC covers the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics Aug. 8, the U.S. team will march into the new stadium and will likely refuse to dip its flag to China’s leaders," said Mark Dyreson, associate professor of kinesiology and history. "NBC’s commentators will explain that the U.S. is following a tradition began in 1908, but the TV people will be wrong about the history of this particularly important display of American nationalism at the Olympics. > > “While the U.S. team did in fact refuse to dip its flag in 1908 at the first-ever parade of nations, the U.S. team dipped the Stars and Stripes in 1912, 1924 and 1932. Indeed, a consistent ‘tradition’ of not dipping the flag at Olympic opening ceremonies did not develop until 1936 when at both the winter and summer games. The U.S. refused to lower its national banner to Adolph Hitler,” he added. > > \ > > “However, in 1936, the American team’s refusal was unquestionably a referendum on Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany,” Dyreson explained. > > “Most of the athletics and much of the American public agreed that they would engage the Third Reich in athletic contests, but would not dip the flag to Hitler nor embrace the Nazi regime.” > > “After 1936, the United States would never again dip the Stars and Stripes at an Olympic games,” he added. “As the Cold War emerged from the debris of the Second World War, the idea became so strong that even opponent Avery Brundage, who eventually moved through the U.S. Olympic Committee to became president of the International Olympic Committee, could not change the tradition.” [Different motives sustained US flag-dipping refusal at Olympics, historian says](http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-08/ps-dms080508.php) ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/24 "2009-06-03T16:32:49Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Americans don’t bow. We shake hands. What about when we go to Japan? ---
**Author:** ![Rodd\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/25 "2009-06-03T16:33:27Z")
Maybe we should just take this one step at a time. Perhaps the US President should \*bowl \*with King Abdullah. The fifth frame could be the “oil frame;” whoever fails to get a strike must supply the other with a month’s worth of crude. After suchlike male bonding, protocol could stretch to the High Five, or at least the Fistbump, nicely sidestepping the implied obsequiousness of the bow. Conversely, the US President could just give the “Guy Nod,” the wordless greeting between two unacquainted men in any slightly embarassing or awkward situation (although it can also be used to silently express appreciation of another male’s car, girlfriend, Sea-Doo, or what-have-you). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/26 "2009-06-03T16:34:06Z")
We take pictures next to vending machines full of used schoolgirl panties. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/27 "2009-06-03T16:39:35Z")
> [@Rodd\_Hill](#): > > Maybe we should just take this one step at a time. Perhaps the US President should \*bowl \*with King Abdullah. The fifth frame could be the “oil frame;” whoever fails to get a strike must supply the other with a month’s worth of crude. > > After suchlike male bonding, protocol could stretch to the High Five, or at least the Fistbump, nicely sidestepping the implied obsequiousness of the bow. Conversely, the US President could just give the “Guy Nod,” the wordless greeting between two unacquainted men in any slightly embarassing or awkward situation (although it can also be used to silently express appreciation of another male’s car, girlfriend, Sea-Doo, or what-have-you). I was going to make a joke that after a period of time they can progress to the shake-hug, or “shug,” but google turns up some news articles indicating that some commentators believe that Obama is already “shugging” too much and that it’s not “presidential.” Can’t bow, can’t shug - the guy just can’t win! ETA: [The Shug: A Gesture from Obama You Believe In](http://www.esquire.com/blogs/endorsement/obama-shug-021109) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/28 "2009-06-03T16:53:42Z")
Given that this question has such strong political overtones, I think it is better suited for GD than GQ. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/29 "2009-06-03T16:54:32Z")
However, I thought that in Muslim cultures it is considerer wrong to bow to another human being? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/30 "2009-06-03T17:07:42Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > What about when we go to Japan? Well the difference there is that in Japan, both people bow. And political views aside, that’s an important factor here - when you bow to a monarch, he doesn’t bow back. It’s a gesture of subservience, not respect. So yes, I don’t think any President should bow to a monarch. I have no problem with the President bowing to the PM of Japan, since he does bow back. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/31 "2009-06-03T17:10:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > However, I thought that in Muslim cultures it is considerer wrong to bow to another human being? Supposedly it’s also frowned upon in Judeo-Christian tradition too, but meh. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/32 "2009-06-03T17:12:49Z")
Wasn’t there a big brew-ha-ha about not following royal protocol with Queen Elizabeth? “Ohhhh, Michelle touched her!” “how dare she!”. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/33 "2009-06-03T17:15:05Z")
George W. Bush held a Saudi Prince’s hand and walked with him through a rose garden, ferchrisakes. It’s all just diplomacy. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/34 "2009-06-03T17:17:08Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Where do you get this info from? Miss Manners. I don’t see a direct quotation online, though I’m finding references. I’ll go look up a page ref. for you from a book. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/35 "2009-06-03T17:28:46Z")
OK, from “Miss Manners’ Guide to the Turn-of-the-Millennium,” page 697, in the section titled ‘The American Way,’ we have: > [@](#): > > One does not bow or curtsy to a foreign monarch because the gesture symbolizes recognition of her power over her subjects. One nevertheless treats her with respect. Since Americans are not subjects of monarchs, we do not bow or curtsy to them (or to our own highest officials, for that matter). American manners are based on egalitarianism, equality, and dignity for all citizens, and do not include distinctions of birth or subservience. Miss Manners has covered the point many times in many different books and columns, but there’s a citation that has several pages on American manners for you. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/36 "2009-06-03T17:29:55Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > George W. Bush held a Saudi Prince’s hand and walked with him through a rose garden, ferchrisakes. In the mideast that is what friends and equals do. Bowing is not a sign of equality. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/37 "2009-06-03T17:34:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m guessing that some of the people who complained about how Barack Obama disgraced America by bowing to a King are the same ones who complained about how Michelle Obama disgraced America by not curtsying to a Queen. Or how Obama personally desecrated the grave of every single dead US soldier, and spat in the faces of the living ones, by not wearing a stupid little American flag lapel pin. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/38 "2009-06-03T17:34:53Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > American manners are based on egalitarianism, equality, and dignity for all citizens, and do not include distinctions of birth or subservience. Yep. Sheer coincidence that we had two Presidents named George Bush in 10 years- no [del]accident[/del] distinction of birth there. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/39 "2009-06-03T17:49:03Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > [Here, for one](http://books.google.com/books?id=2mVC5EtaIJQC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=americans+curtsy+etiquette&source=bl&ots=Ic3khDPrKm&sig=dpXXr3dvAQ3zHH4ND1oCKByyiC8&hl=en&ei=5p4mSsmiBJSJtgegzMXdBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1). From your link: > [@](#): > > If you wish to show respect in a less traditional manner, bow slightly. This is a lovely gesture that can be used whenever you meet anyone. One of its advantages is that it permits men and women to use the same kind of greeting. I don’t really know what makes a curtsy different from a bow, symbolically. But apparently one is etiquette and one is not. Good thing I don’t care one way or the other for etiquette. Miss Manners disagrees anyway. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/40 "2009-06-03T17:51:30Z")
The president is visiting the head of state on their own soil. I have no problem with a little bow to either King Abdula or Queen Elizabeth on their own turf. When they visit the US, however, I can see forgoing the bow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581.md?page=3)