# Why NOT bow to King Abdullah? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581 "2009-06-03T14:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/41 "2009-06-03T17:53:34Z")
> [@HorseloverFat](#): > > Oh btw, [here’s Bush doing the same thing and more](http://www.cephas-library.com/nwo_bush_goes_to_shinto_worship.html), yet no Rush Limbaugh and Hannity led attacks. Funny how that works. The double standard for Obama is annoying and youd think dopers would know better. Which country’s monarch is Bush bowing to? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/42 "2009-06-03T17:55:18Z")
> [@HorseloverFat](#): > > This is a right-wing manufactured controversy. Ive seen presidents and other high-level officials bow to Asians all the time, but when its a Muslim, well, its suddenly manufactured outrage time. It’s different when it’s customary for everyone within a culture to bow to one another. In the middle east, so far as I know, bowing isn’t done between equals like it is in many parts of Asia. In the ME people shake hands, a lot. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/43 "2009-06-03T17:58:21Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I think it was just more shit cooked up by the right wing extremists to try to smear Obama. The guy’s a king and the head of state, so you show him a little respect, so what? I don’t have a problem with Obama bowing to any king or queen If he bows, he bows. If he doesn’t bow, he doesn’t bow. If a gesture as simple as this greases the wheels of diplomacy, then fine. Otherwise, who cares. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/44 "2009-06-03T17:59:42Z")
Bowing implies subordinate status, usually. There may well be a modified gesture to show respect between heads of state as co-equals, but in the case of monarchs, this gets complicated. There is no parallel gesture of subordinate respect in place for POTUS, as the Founding Fathers eschewed such nonsense. There was, however, some support for something like a noble class among the citizens, and George Washington had to actively quash such traditions in the bud. Hell, it took the Civil War for us to have admirals in our Navy, as admirals were deemed too much of an aristocratic rank - that, and we didn’t have much of a navy for a long time. I guess Obama could just fist-bump everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/45 "2009-06-03T18:05:22Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > In the mideast that is what friends and equals do. Bowing is not a sign of equality. Well, personally, I think the whole issue of bowing and courtseying and holding hands as equals and all that to be fairly goofy yet innocuous gestures. I don’t think I’d be too jazzed to bow to a Saudi King or hold his hand, but it’s not like either Bush or Obama was signing away Texas by following through with some custom or another. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/46 "2009-06-03T18:11:15Z")
If you can think of a better way of exchanging long protein strands, I’d like to hear it! What an absurd kerfuffle. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/47 "2009-06-03T18:16:51Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Which country’s monarch is Bush bowing to? He was bowing in reverence to a Shinto Shrine, whose gods are pagan lies according to Bush’s expressed religion. If bowing is offensive, then this is worse than Obama’s bow to the Saudi King, and conservatives should rightly have attacked Bush with even more fervor than they are Obama Except they won’t, because this whole bowing controversy is fake manufactured anger by the right wing ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/48 "2009-06-03T18:32:36Z")
I’m an Obama fan, and there’s no question the President bowed to the Saudi king, and too deeply at that. A slight bend at the waist, or nod of the head, is all that’s appropriate for a republic’s head of state in acknowledging a foreign potentate, IMHO, given the circumstances of our country’s founding. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/49 "2009-06-03T18:39:14Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > He was bowing in reverence to a Shinto Shrine, whose gods are pagan lies according to Bush’s expressed religion. So no monarch, then. Right. > [@](#): > > If bowing is offensive, then this is worse than Obama’s bow to the Saudi King, and conservatives should rightly have attacked Bush with even more fervor than they are Obama I don’t follow your syllogism. Has anyone said that bowing in and of itself is offensive? Where? It’s bowing to a king that is being complained about. For example, I doubt that anyone would complain if the President were to bow to his waltz partner before commencing the dance, so simply bowing is not the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/50 "2009-06-03T18:39:42Z")
Obviously, Obama should have given the King a little back rub rather than bow to him. That’s an appropriate gesture towards a foreign head of state. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/51 "2009-06-03T18:49:05Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I don’t follow your syllogism. Has anyone said that bowing in and of itself is offensive? Where? It’s bowing to a king that is being complained about. Bowing in order to show respect to a King is apparently taken to mean “I’m your servant and so is my entire country”. By doing it to a Shinto Shrine, Bush, if the right wing logic were applied, would have been seen to show deference and legitimize what amounted to be pagan spirits in the eyes of his religion. That is why it is stupid for right wingers to not criticize Bush but criticize Obama. It is hypocritical to say that Obama cannot show respect through a bow to the King, that it most definitely positively means he’s subservient, and not assume the same thing of Bush when he did it to the Shinto Shrine. What? One cannot show respect to a shrine? Bowing isn’t accepting if its a pagan god? > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > For example, I doubt that anyone would complain if the President were to bow to his waltz partner before commencing the dance, so simply bowing is not the issue. Herein lies the ridiculous standards of the right wing talk machine. If Obama were to bow to a dancing partner, it would be tradition. If he did it to a king, someone who traditionally commands respect and admiration, then suddenly its no longer tradition but “Obama thinks the US is subservient to Saudi Arabia”. Those people should get a clue, its simply tradition that he shows respect to a visiting monarch, nothing more ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/52 "2009-06-03T18:51:11Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Americans don’t bow. We shake hands. For an American to bow signifies that he is going above and beyond normal protocol to show respect for a person. As President, he speaks for all of us and by him bowing, it is the United States bowing, if you will. Do yourself a favor: never go to Japan. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/53 "2009-06-03T19:05:09Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Bowing in order to show respect to a King is apparently taken to mean “I’m your servant and so is my entire country”. Perhaps it’s apparent to you. It isn’t to me. Has that position been advanced in this thread? That Obama is declaring fealty for America to Saudi Arabia? > [@](#): > > By doing it to a Shinto Shrine, Bush, if the right wing logic were applied, would have been seen to show deference and legitimize what amounted to be pagan spirits in the eyes of his religion. That is why it is stupid for right wingers to not criticize Bush but criticize Obama. That’s a rather weak analogy. It is not at all obvious to me that a religious gesture is anywhere near as important as a political gesture. > [@](#): > > It is hypocritical to say that Obama cannot show respect through a bow to the King, that it most definitely positively means he’s subservient, and not assume the same thing of Bush when he did it to the Shinto Shrine. What? One cannot show respect to a shrine? Bowing isn’t accepting if its a pagan god? No it isn’t. Bowing to a shrine isn’t a sign of subservience. > [@](#): > > Herein lies the ridiculous standards of the right wing talk machine. If Obama were to bow to a dancing partner, it would be tradition. If he did it to a king, someone who traditionally commands respect and admiration, then suddenly its no longer tradition but “Obama thinks the US is subservient to Saudi Arabia”. The right wing talk machine? I had no idea I was part of that. When do I get my membership card? You seem to have missed my point. Deliberately? At any rate, I was simply providing an example of bowing that is unobjectionable, in response to your assertion that someone has taken the position that “bowing is offensive.” No one has, as far as I know. It’s the context that makes the difference. > [@](#): > > Those people should get a clue, its simply tradition that he shows respect to a visiting monarch, nothing more. For what it’s worth, “those people” in the link to Bush bowing seem to be serious right wingers, and they are complaining up a storm about it. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/54 "2009-06-03T19:29:02Z")
> [@Rodd\_Hill](#): > > Maybe we should just take this one step at a time. Perhaps the US President should \*bowl \*with King Abdullah. The fifth frame could be the “oil frame;” whoever fails to get a strike must supply the other with a month’s worth of crude. > > After suchlike male bonding, protocol could stretch to the High Five, or at least the Fistbump, nicely sidestepping the implied obsequiousness of the bow. Conversely, the US President could just give the “Guy Nod,” the wordless greeting between two unacquainted men in any slightly embarassing or awkward situation (although it can also be used to silently express appreciation of another male’s car, girlfriend, Sea-Doo, or what-have-you). Are you crazy? Did you see Obama’s bowling score? We’d run out of oil in a few years. No, the game must be basketball. He already has a court that he can practice on. As to the bowing I don’t see it as a big deal. I think he was just doing what he thought he was supposed to do. Personally though I would never bow to a King/Monarch unless they made me a Knight, or equivalent, of their realm and gave me a kick ass sword and then I would be happy too. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/55 "2009-06-03T19:32:27Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Do yourself a favor: never go to Japan. :rolleyes: But the Japanese _bow back to you_. Monarchs don’t. There’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/56 "2009-06-03T19:39:54Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I wouldn’t bow to any king. Why should Obama? I’m the opposite. I do a kind of head nod to everybody when I meet them, why would I treat a king any different? I’ve seen Obama do the same kind of head nod as I do, he’d probably do it to me if we met. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/57 "2009-06-03T19:46:01Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Obviously, Obama should have given the King a little back rub rather than bow to him. That’s an appropriate gesture towards a foreign head of state. No. In America, we slap you on the back, stuff a beer in your hand, and holler “How the fuck are ya” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/58 "2009-06-03T19:48:00Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > I’m the opposite. I do a kind of head nod to everybody when I meet them, why would I treat a king any different? > > I’ve seen Obama do the same kind of head nod as I do, he’d probably do it to me if we met. If it had been a head nod I doubt anyone would have objected. We’re not talking about a nod of the head. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/59 "2009-06-03T19:48:30Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > Bowing implies subordinate status, usually. There may well be a modified gesture to show respect between heads of state as co-equals, but in the case of monarchs, this gets complicated. > > There is no parallel gesture of subordinate respect in place for POTUS, as the Founding Fathers eschewed such nonsense. There was, however, some support for something like a noble class among the citizens, and George Washington had to actively quash such traditions in the bud. This is correct and the objection to the subordinate nature of nobility was codified in the Constitution in Article I: **No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.** So unlike a mutual bow in Japan as a form of greeting the President bowed in subordination to a royal entity. As representative of the United States he has subordinated us not only to royalty but also to one of the most backward misogynistic countries on the planet. I can’t see any difference between this and a raised arm salute to Hitler prior to WWII. This is a country that actively teaches the hatred and destruction of Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/60 "2009-06-03T19:59:33Z")
> [@magiver](#): > > as representative of the united states he has subordinated us not only to royalty but also to one of the most backward misogynistic countries on the planet. I can’t see any difference between this and a raised arm salute to hitler prior to wwii. This is a country that actively teaches the hatred and destruction of jews. Post of the day!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581.md?page=4)