# Why NOT bow to King Abdullah? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581 "2009-06-03T14:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/161 "2009-06-05T19:33:07Z")
A statement and a question, first the statement: I personally couldn’t care less what Bush or Obama do with other leaders as long as it either maintains or advances US interests. If that means running bare-foot through the grass singing the sound of music, great, as long as it isn’t hurting us. Question: All of the stuff regarding “power” based on human interactions seems to imply that the interaction results in a shifting of power, either between the parties interacting or in the perception of those watching. Are there any studies that show definitively that one’s actions (to bow or not to bow, power handshake, etc.) result in an actual difference in the power that either of the parties maintains with either the other party or with the public in general? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/162 "2009-06-05T19:42:07Z")
[QUOTE=RaftPeople] Are there any studies that show definitively that one’s actions (to bow or not to bow, power handshake, etc.) result in an actual difference in the power that either of the parties maintains with either the other party or with the public in general? [/QUOTE] I don’t have any data on studies done on this question (I have no doubt that there have been, just too lazy to look it up atm), but I think it’s all about perception. Someone bowing to someone else is perceived to be inferior. Same with the power handshake, especially when you consider that the orientation of the handshake is dependent on where the camera is. There are all kinds of subtle dominant/submissive body postures and actions or gestures. I got the thing about the handshake from a show on (IIRC) TLC or Discovery on world leaders and how they use gestures and posture to project dominance or submission. It was extremely interesting…especially when they talked about how a lot of political figures go in for coaching from professionals specializing in the various gestures and postures. What was the most interesting was the number of politicians who went in for this sort of thing…and examples of ones who didn’t and were perceived to be ‘weak’. My guess is that Obama simply hasn’t had time to assimilate all of this kind of crap, and possibly wouldn’t go in for it in any case (not all politicians do…though most politicians who are on the world stage do). -XT ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/163 "2009-06-05T19:47:08Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I don’t have any data on studies done on this question (I have no doubt that there have been, just too lazy to look it up atm), but I think it’s all about perception. Someone bowing to someone else is perceived to be inferior. Same with the power handshake, especially when you consider that the orientation of the handshake is dependent on where the camera is. There are all kinds of subtle dominant/submissive body postures and actions or gestures. I got the thing about the handshake from a show on (IIRC) TLC or Discovery on world leaders and how they use gestures and posture to project dominance or submission. It was extremely interesting…especially when they talked about how a lot of political figures go in for coaching from professionals specializing in the various gestures and postures. What was the most interesting was the number of politicians who went in for this sort of thing…and examples of ones who didn’t and were perceived to be ‘weak’. > > My guess is that Obama simply hasn’t had time to assimilate all of this kind of crap, and possibly wouldn’t go in for it in any case (not all politicians do…though most politicians who are on the world stage do). > > -XT I understand that there is an assumption regarding perception, but I’ve always wondered about this stuff, whether the perception really does alter anyones view of a situation, and whether the assumed perception is the majority perception. I read a book (something like dress for power) a long time ago, and the author claimed that Jimmy Carter lost power in people’s mind by walking to the white house instead of being driven. But, it’s possible that it’s the exact opposite, that he gained power by connecting more with individual tv viewers. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/164 "2009-06-05T19:51:25Z")
There were a lot of examples of Carter (who was not a devotee of the whole power postures and gestures school of thinking). And it’s interesting, because he WAS perceived to be weak. Every complex animal (that I know of) has SOME kind of cue, gesture, posture, etc that signals dominance or submission. Humans are no exceptions. So, I’d have to say that it has an impact. How much of an impact? No idea to be honest…but it’s non-zero. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/165 "2009-06-06T01:00:11Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > [QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] > We take pictures next to vending machines full of used schoolgirl panties. Kindly explain, I’m confused:confused: [/QUOTE] The Japanese have vending machines selling those. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/166 "2009-06-06T01:54:48Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Says you. > So does that mean you accept them as your superiors and rulers? I am hired to take care of their problems that relate to my department. They are my customers, With out them I have no job no pay check. When I go into a store I do not expect the employees to turn away from me, I expect them to take care of my related problems, ie I need a shirt, I expect them to go to the trouble to help me find the right shirt. Does not mean they are better than me or I am better than them. To me bowing, unless mutual, implies the bower is less than the one being bowed to. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/167 "2009-06-06T03:12:38Z")
He bowed to Queen Elizabeth (slightly), and even to Prince Philip (more of a nod). He’s just a humble man. He’d bow to one of us and thank us for inviting him to our home. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/168 "2009-06-06T03:19:47Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > He bowed to Queen Elizabeth (slightly), and even to Prince Philip (more of a nod). He’s just a humble man. He’d bow to one of us and thank us for inviting him to our home. He was bowing to Prince Philip in gratitude for not asking to fly Air Force One. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/169 "2009-06-06T04:56:34Z")
Is there any record of Bush Sr or Jr or Clinton bowing to the head of Saudi Arabia? Or even Reagan? That’s not exactly reaching back into the far past - I’m 33, and remember them all well. That’s not including the video linked before where Bush bowed to get a medal bestowed upon him, which is easily explained away as being to do with getting a medal bestowed rather than just bowing. Though why, exactly, getting a medal bestowed by the King of Saudi Arabia would be a lesser indicator of fealty than momentarily bowing before said King is, I’m not sure. Imagine the furore if Obama had a medal bestowed on him by the King of Saudi now! ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/170 "2009-06-06T06:12:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The Japanese have vending machines selling those. Well you live and learn ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/171 "2009-06-06T08:00:17Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Does not mean they are better than me or I am better than them. To me bowing, unless mutual, implies the bower is less than the one being bowed to. \ Well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man \ For what it’s worth, I have deep seated problems with authority, and refuse to accept it from anyone. Parents, teachers, cops, government, priests or my boss when I had one : nobody’s the boss of me. I still bow to pretty much everyone\*, including waiters/waitresses, the building’s super and people who hold the door for me. It’s just respect and politeness/humbleness. - not a deep, bend-over bow, more like what the journalist does in **YogSothoth** ’s vid ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/172 "2009-06-06T21:30:44Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Is there any record of Bush Sr or Jr or Clinton bowing to the head of Saudi Arabia? Or even Reagan? That’s not exactly reaching back into the far past - I’m 33, and remember them all well. Reagan? How about his visit to the [Kolmeshöhe Cemetery, in Bitburg, Germany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitburg#Reagan_visit_controvers)? > [@](#): > > Planning > > In February 1985, then White House deputy chief of staff Michael Deaver made an advance-planning visit to Bitburg. The 32 rows of headstones were covered with snow. Deaver was usually very skillful in carrying out his role as public relations maestro for Reagan, but this time he and his team failed to discover that 49 members of the Waffen-SS were buried at Kolmeshöhe. A decision was made by the Reagan team not to include a visit to a concentration camp, as had been previously suggested by Kohl. The president said he didn’t want to risk “reawakening the passions of the time” or offend his hosts by visiting a concentration camp. And then, Reagan, in one of his gaffs said something like the SS officers being victims too (of deceit, mind you!), and it ended up being one hell of a mess. > [@](#): > > “These [SS troops] were the villains, as we know, that conducted the persecutions and all. But there are 2,000 graves there, and most of those, the average age is about 18. I think that there’s nothing wrong with visiting that cemetery where those young men are victims of Nazism also, even though they were fighting in the German uniform, drafted into service to carry out the hateful wishes of the Nazis. They were victims, just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps” (Of course, to be fair, most of those buried there WERE only in their late teens, early twenties, and had been conscripted) They then ended up scheduling a visit to Bergen-Belsen as well. Gah. I’d say that far, far outstripts the bow, wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/173 "2009-06-06T22:44:42Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > \ > Well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man > \ > > For what it’s worth, I have deep seated problems with authority, and refuse to accept it from anyone. Parents, teachers, cops, government, priests or my boss when I had one : nobody’s the boss of me. I still bow to pretty much everyone\*, including waiters/waitresses, the building’s super and people who hold the door for me. It’s just respect and politeness/humbleness. > > - not a deep, bend-over bow, more like what the journalist does in **YogSothoth** ’s vid A bow of the head is different than the type of bow that is being discussed. I will nod my head to tip my hat to someone I am aknowledging. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/174 "2009-06-06T22:57:26Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > In the mideast that is what friends and equals do. Bowing is not a sign of equality. In many cultures bowing is a greeting of respect. If the bow is equal by both, then there is a presumption of equality. If you bow deeper than the other, then it’s a bow of deference. I wouldn’t bow to a Saudi king but I bow all the time to my wife’s parents. I respect them. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/175 "2009-06-06T23:21:59Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > What about when we go to Japan? We shake their heads when _they_ bow to _us_. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/176 "2009-06-07T05:07:47Z")
Here’s my take on it. I’ll be damned if I bow to ANY king, queen or other foreign noble. I’m the equal of any and all people on this planet, and expect to be treated as such. The President of the United States, in his role of Head of State, is the representative of the People (and me, as one of them) in dealings with foreign nations and dignitaries. He’s the equal of any and all men on the planet, just as our nation is the equal of any and all nations on the planet, and he has no business going around bowing to anyone as the representative of the population of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/177 "2009-06-07T05:12:12Z")
So do you have a problem with him adressing to King Abdullah (or whoever) as “your Majesty”? It is, after all, a deferential form of address. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/178 "2009-06-07T14:42:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So do you have a problem with him adressing to King Abdullah (or whoever) as “your Majesty”? It is, after all, a deferential form of address. The proper way to address King Abdullah is “you evil sick I’m going to shoot you now _BANG_” ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/179 "2009-06-07T21:25:35Z")
In Arab countries I’d imagine President Obama has enough to worry about being left handed in a country where the left is considered “unclean”. I’m right handed, and I’d have a hell of a time remembering to use my left hand for everything if the situation were reversed. The purpose of this trip is clean up the mess left by Bush 43, and if the response of the speech in Egypt is any indication, things are going well. I still have goosebumps recalling someone in the audience yelling “We love you!”. During a speech. By an American President. So if cleaning up the mess means bowing to an Arab potentate to get on the good side of the people in that country, so be it. He could have been bowing not because Abdullah is a King, but because he is older, and that’s just what a younger man is [expected to do](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette_in_the_Middle_East#Points_of_etiquette) even when the two are equals. He has to avoid using the hand he has always used for eating to avoid giving offense. He has to avoid crossing his legs and showing the soles of his feet. There are a thousand little ways to commit a gaffe in all the different cultures he will interact with in his position…and the lunatic fringe of the Right Wing is the _last_ group he can afford to worry about offending. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581/180 "2009-06-07T23:48:04Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > There are a thousand little ways to commit a gaffe in all the different cultures he will interact with in his position…and the lunatic fringe of the Right Wing is the _last_ group he can afford to worry about offending. I voted for him, and campaigned for him, and I think it was the wrong thing to do. Am I in the lunatic fringe of the right wing? You might want to try a narrower brush. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-bow-to-king-abdullah/498581.md?page=10)