# Why not have a national ID card? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171 "2004-09-26T16:17:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/61 "2004-09-27T18:49:29Z")
Since the only proposed/valid use for the national ID card is convenience (there is no real public safety value) then the obvious solution is a voluntary uni-gov card. Then the people concerned with the number of cards in their wallet and line-ups per year can pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/62 "2004-09-27T19:10:00Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > National ID card? Every country I know of has that as an option. It’s called a passport. A relatively small percentage of Americans have passports. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/63 "2004-09-27T19:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > A relatively small percentage of Americans have passports. Perhaps that’s a already-done referendum on who wants national ID’s. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/64 "2004-09-27T20:10:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ve worked at a lot of jobs and I’ve never seen an “I-9” – do you mean a W-4 form? You _should_ have an [I9](http://uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/i-9.htm). Maybe you just don’t remember. > [@](#): > > All U.S. employers are responsible for completion and retention of Form I-9 for each individual they hire for employment in the United States. This includes citizens and noncitizens. On the form, the employer must verify the employment eligibility and identity documents presented by the employee and record the document information on the Form I-9. > [@Vlad/Igor](#): > > Why do I have to prove my citizenship and eligibility to work to the same bureacracy every effing time I am hired? Because the I9 isn’t filed with the federal government. Your employer is simply required to keep it on file in case the feds come a knockin’. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/65 "2004-09-27T20:14:52Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > What would the benefits be? > > Well, it would be an inconvenience. Some would say, what’s the big deal? I say, it probably isn’t a big deal at first, but after awhile, these little inconveniences start to add up to a big pain in the ass. And whenever an ass is involved, you know there’s gonna be some shit. I already have a national ID card, it is called a passport. Has all my salient information, a picture and indicates my citizenship. I frequently use it expecially when job hunting as it is very useful as it demonstrates I definitely qualify to work and live in the US… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/66 "2004-09-27T21:17:44Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > We have one, mandatory for everybody who is 16 or older. It looks like [this](http://www.bundesdruckerei.de/pics/4_presse/fotoarchiv/personal_downloads/pa.jpg). Was that your picture shown? If so, consider yourself duly noted as a damn good-looking female specimen of humanity. If it wasn’t your picture, then tell Erika I said “du bist eine Hottie!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/67 "2004-09-27T22:12:48Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I already have a national ID card, it is called a passport. Yes, but it is not a standard. You’re not forced to vote with it, your driving record is not on it, you are not getting pulled over and being asked to see your passport. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/68 "2004-09-28T06:11:10Z")
**BrainGlutton** , are you suggesting that the national ID be mandatory? If not, then I don’t see a significant difference between a national ID and a SSN, passport, or (to a lesser extent) a driver’s license number. For example, a state could allow its citizens to use their driver’s license as their voter registration card and their library card. But if the driver’s license is not mandatory, then there would still need to be voter registration and library cards for those without driver’s licenses. Furthermore, the databases would have to be searchable by two discrete IDs. If so, then what are the advantages of a national ID? So far I have heard these: 1. Efficiency: Databases could be searched and merged using a common key. Since the national ID is both mandatory and unique, it would work better than SSN or name. 2. Personal Convenience: A national ID card could eliminate several forms of identification (e.g. state driver’s license, social security card, voter registration card, library card). 3. Simplification of New Services: A government agency (or company) could create a new service. The new service would not need its own identification card - it could use the national ID card. How would the national ID be kept secure? In order to see a significant gain in efficiency, the national ID would have to be used by more services then, say, a SSN is used. However this would increase the opportunities for identity fraud. For example, if a library uses the national ID card, then a library employee might have enough information to change my postal address or transfer my car registration. Frankly I am more concerned about misuse by private individuals than the federal government. It is possible for the federal government to create a database with all of its citizen’s personal data. Whether or not the database is searchable by national ID is an implementation issue. Certainly the database would be searchable by name, addresses, SSN, and driver’s license number. The states would have to cooperate and merge their databases with the federal database, but that is not an insurmountable hurdle. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/69 "2004-09-28T22:07:42Z")
> [@CaveMike](#): > > **BrainGlutton** , are you suggesting that the national ID be mandatory? Sure, why not? And, to prevent mistakes and identity theft, it should be in a form you can’t lose . . . say, an ID number tattooed on your hand or forehead in ink that shows up only in UV light . . . e.g., “U.S. National I.D. Number 666-XXXXXXXXX” . . . 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/70 "2004-09-29T02:08:47Z")
A late reply to the OP here, but then again, I also carry a form of a national ID already . . . Even though I’m military, I’d fight this tooth and nail. I have nothing to hide at all, but anything I give to a federal government gives them the ability to know it, and I’m not a proponent of bucking a state’s right to regulate it’s own people. Call me paranoid, but I have a NJ driver’s liscense, but no registration on the guns I own. Being that I live out of state (military–it’s legal), I don’t register them. It’s nobody’s business. And I don’t care to have my inventory advertised on a database that some 12 or 15 year old hacker can get into. I don’t care to have my political preference listed. I don’t care to have unnessecary data linked to a number. Basically, I just don’t trust any “secure” data system, and I don’t think I ever will. This, coming from a guy who you can download his blood type if you tried hard enough. :smack: Tripler Me provide useful data to you? No thanks. . . ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/71 "2004-09-29T03:20:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _BrainGlutton said_ > Sure, why not? And, to prevent mistakes and identity theft, it should be in a form you can’t lose . . . say, an ID number tattooed on your hand or forehead in ink that shows up only in UV light . . . e.g., “U.S. National I.D. Number 666-XXXXXXXXX” Well we would save a lot of wallet space… Just curious, is it paranoid delusion to imagine the uni-gov database eventually being thumb or retinal scan linked? Is that more aesthetically pleasing than a vulgar tattoo. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/72 "2004-10-02T13:06:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is it your right not to pay taxes, then? Sales taxes can be paid without leaving any trail, if you pay cash – but filing federal tax returns creates a public record. So does getting a paycheck with a FICA deduction for Social Security taxes. And if you own real property you have to pay local property taxes and that also creates a paper trail. You only have to pay income tax if your income is over a certain level. I know this, because for severeal years I was in that situation. IIRC, I wasn’t even required to file (maybe that’s changed). So… if you do strictly odd jobs for cash on the barrel in small amounts (to avoid the need to issue a 1099), and you don’t mind a very frugal existance, you could exist for a lifetime both without paying income taxes and without breaking the law. Is that a lifestyle I would choose? No - I worked darn hard to escape that level of poverty. But it would be conceivable to me that some people would choose it. By the way - with the “national ID” card and the presumed requirement to put your permanent residence on it … what about the homeless? Would “homeless” be a legitimate response? “Under the sidewalk at Clark and Madison”? Yeah, I also think about weird stuff like, if you require fingerprints what do you do about people who have no fingers? Retina prints required? What if you don’t have eyes? Yeah, I know these are rare exceptions to the general rule - but in a country the size of the US there are _thousands_ of such people. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/73 "2004-10-02T13:13:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ve worked at a lot of jobs and I’ve never seen an “I-9” – do you mean a W-4 form? They are two different forms. If you’re a US citizen you may well have never seen an I-9 - they are filled out by non-citizens to document their legal presence and legal authorization to work in the US. It’s also CYA for the employer, since hiring non-citizens who don’t have permission to work in the US is breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/74 "2004-10-02T13:37:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sure, why not? And, to prevent mistakes and identity theft, it should be in a form you can’t lose . . . say, an ID number tattooed on your hand or forehead in ink that shows up only in UV light . . . e.g., “U.S. National I.D. Number 666-XXXXXXXXX” . . . 😃 My first thought was that the Jews will be up in arms - they generally maintain their religion forbids tattooing of any sort. Not to mention all the flashbacks to WWII and the deathcamps. Then we’ll have the religious nutjobs freaking out over the “mark of the beast” which revelations describes as being on either the hand or the forehead. You may think it’s funny and ridiculous - some of the believers, however, are quite serious to preferring death to such a tattoo (if I sincerely believed getting such a tattoo would result in an eternity frying in hellfire I might even agree with them) And that’s just for starters. What about people allergic to the ink? What if you’re in an accident and the tattooed skin on your forehead is scraped or burned off? The problem of having _just one_ ID making identity theft _easier_ has been brought up. Not to mention the difficulty of eliminating errors… think of trying to correct an error on your credit rating and you’ll get the essence of the problem. I read an essay once (pre-Internet, or I’d try to link to it) arguing that having multiple ID’s makes it _harder_ to steal identity or forge one. Instead of forging one document the would-be bad guy have to forge three or four. It’s more complicated, with more room for error. Likewise, I don’t like the idea of a tattoo issued - no, I think multiple biometrics is the way to go. (Actually, I have a recurring nightmare that if fingerprints become the standard there will be a rash of robberies involving Bad Guys slicing off the index fingers of good citizens in order to access their ATM accounts). That way, even a seriously injured person could potentially be identified, and you would have a means of establishing your true identity should your card be lost or questioned. As for the downside – I would think the Nazi genocides during WWII would be an excellent illustration of why you don’t always want the government to know exactly who and where you are. If all Gypsies are identified and easily located it becomes easy to round them up and do Terrible Things to them. Likewise for, say, homosexuals, who could in theory be rounded up by a religous conservative government and forced to undergo “treatment” to “cure” them. Don’t think it could happen here? Why not? The Americans are not inherently “better” than anyone else. Given the right circumstances _yes, it could happen here_ and for that reason yes, I question the need for the government - on ANY level be it local, state, or federal - to know where I am and what I’m doing at all times. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/75 "2004-10-02T14:06:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do other countries have national ID cards? If so, is it a practice which lends itself to abuse? (I mean, in democratic countries, not dictatorships.) There’s a national ID card in France. Though it’s not per se mandatory to have one, you can hardly avoid it, since it will be asked when you write a check, when you register at the local library, when dealing with various official services, etc…actually any time you need to prove your identity to someone. You can use other official IDs, like a driver’s license, for instance, in most cases, but not everybody has a driver license. As for abuse, they’re aren’t dependant on the existence of a national ID, but on the laws. For instance, are you required to show it to any police officer at any time? What informations are written on it (your religion is, in Greece, for instance)? What databases are connected with the national ID database? Who can check these datas and why? Etc… I’ve personnaly no particular issue with the french ID card. I believe it mostly falls down on what you’re accustomed to. For instance, good luck trying to ask his social security number (that, I understand, is casually asked in the US) to a frenchman if you’re not his doctor or his employer, for instance, and he will immediatly suspect you have some sinister motives for enquiring about such a sensible information. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/76 "2004-10-02T14:08:12Z")
Just to mention what actually happens inFrance with ID (and with had those for w > [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > 1. First, you gotta wait in line to get one of these little “treasures”. DMV style baby. Currently, you wait for a drivers license. Now you’ll have to do it twice. So after you the the DL, you then go to a federal building and do it over? No thanks. > > 2. You’re gonna pay for it. You _know_ you’re gonna pay for it! > > 3. Every, single, god damn, federal and state facility will require you to use it for services. > > 4. 5 years later, if stopped by law enforcement, you’ll be required to have the ID on you. $75.00 dollar fine if you don’t. You _know_ it’ll happen. > > 5. 5 years later again, every, single, god damn, store, ball park and parking lot will require you to get it scanned for services. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/77 "2004-10-02T14:09:54Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > Yes, but it is not a standard. You’re not forced to vote with it, your driving record is not on it, you are not getting pulled over and being asked to see your passport. True, though when I got my wallet lifted at First Night Hartford last year and lost my drivers license and military ID it _was_ my only form of ID. It took me a couple weeks to manage to replace all my wallet chachkas. On the whole, I would love an implanted chip to deal with all matters of ID. I can remember clocking in at a couple nuke plants to work where they used a thumb print and swipe card for access, so I could see sticking my hand into a chip reader and swiping an id card. Honestly, because of some of my jobs, and being a military dependant, I have had the government up my ass so frequently checking for different clearances I feel married to them. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/78 "2004-10-02T14:23:49Z")
Just to mention what actually happen with IDs in France (and we had those for way longer than 5 years. Probably closer to one century) : > [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > What would the benefits be? > > 1. First, you gotta wait in line to get one of these little “treasures”. DMV style baby. Currently, you wait for a drivers license. Now you’ll have to do it twice. So after you the the DL, you then go to a federal building and do it over? No thanks. > > 2. You’re gonna pay for it. You _know_ you’re gonna pay for it! > > 3. Every, single, god damn, federal and state facility will require you to use it for services. > > 4. 5 years later, if stopped by law enforcement, you’ll be required to have the ID on you. $75.00 dollar fine if you don’t. You _know_ it’ll happen. > > 5. 5 years later again, every, single, god damn, store, ball park and parking lot will require you to get it scanned for services. 1. Yes, you have to wait in line for these. Once every ten years. Last time I did was last year, and I waited in line for a total of one hour or so, and came back a dozen day later to get my ID. Big deal. 2. You used to pay for them. Now, they’re free, which, given they’re quite necessary is IMO the correct way to go. 3. Depends. Some do, but these are the simple ones. Most public facilities ask for much more paperwork than a mere ID, unfortunately. 4)You’re not required to have your ID on you, and can’t be fined for not having it. However the police can ask you to prove your identity in some situations defined by law (though a lot of french people actually believe they’re obligated to show thier ID at any time to a police oficer, that’s blatantly false), and the ID card comes in handy in these cases (it happened twice to me in my life. Once when was hanging out in a cafe that was a place where various unsavory activities were taking place, and the police stormed in and checked everybody, and once in the subway during some anti-drug operation. however, people who looks like potential illegal immigrants, that is black and arab-looking people are much more likely to be checked). 1. Indeed, all stores will ask you your ID card when you write a personnal check. Nobody ever scanned it, though. Anyway, once again, these things aren’t dependant on the existence of an ID card. There’s no dreadful inavoidable consequence of its existence. It’s fully dependant on laws passed related to their use. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/79 "2004-10-02T14:39:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m thinking that a national ID card could **replace** driver’s licenses. That is, the card itself, or info in a database accessible through a magnetic stripe on the back, could encode up-do-date info on everything about you relevant to government, or resulting from transactions with government – your Social Security account; your status as a licensed or unlicensed driver; your voting registration status and place of residence for voting purposes (this could solve the problem, mentioned in the thread linked in the OP, of people registering and voting in more than one state); your status as a citizen or resident alien (also would eliminate the problem – some see it as a problem, anyway – of noncitizens voting); etc. And your draft registration status, assuming we ever revive the draft. And your criminal record, if any, and status as a probationer or parolee. We have government-issued cards for all these things anyway; I’m just talking about consolidating them into a single card. > ." Honestly, I would be _utterly_ opposed to a card that would include all these informations. Most of the informations you list, though they might be needed by someone in some circumstances, have no reason to be disclosed to everybody who would want or need to check my ID. Why should the police know about by social security situation? Why should the pool station officials know about my criminal record? Besides, this card could be stolen/found by various people and I definitely don’t want such infos to be stored on it. For the Record, my ID card has my name, picture, date and place of birth, and residency at the time it was issued. That’s all. All it proves is that, looking at the picture, you can tell that I’m indeed Mr Clairobscur. I have a different card for social security since the transactions has been entirely automatized, the driver’s license is a separate document, the ID cards are only issued to citizens (so, actually, it proves I’m a french citizen too), I’ve a military card buried somewhere concerning my status, and my criminal record can only be accessed in a very limited set of circumstances by a very limited number of people (for instance by the police, or if I apply for a position as a civil servant). I’m not even sure I could myself access it if I wanted to. And I’m perfectly happy with that. I’m not worried about ID cards, but I would be definitely be worried by the existence of some huge database including all these informations about me. Let alone having them encoded in a card. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171/80 "2004-10-02T14:45:32Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > We have one, mandatory for everybody who is 16 or older. It looks like [this](http://www.bundesdruckerei.de/pics/4_presse/fotoarchiv/personal_downloads/pa.jpg). The backside lists your current address. Weird. It looks quite exactly like a french one. I’m wondering if they deliberatly uniformized these documents or if it’s the simply the logical result of an identical purpose. > [@](#): > > We have one, mandatory for everybody who is 16 or older > > Here the ID itself has no real potential for abuse since you have to register your residence anyway. The french one isn’t mandatory, and you don’t have to register your residence. The residence at the time it was issued is mentionned on it, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-a-national-id-card/266171.md?page=5)