# Why not have Russia in NATO & EU? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679 "2010-10-19T17:46:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/1 "2010-10-19T17:46:27Z")
Peoples perceptions of Russia as the cold war enemy is outdated and no longer a necessary perception. I for one think that to entice Russia into EU membership and the NATO alliance, it would greatly reduce tensions and maybe allay Russian consternation of NATO encroaching in what it seems is its ‘Backyard’ I mean, why not? We admitted Turkey into NATO at a time when it wasn’t wholly democratic, same with Greece and even Spain. Another questioned raised is what would the benefits of Russian membership entail? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/2 "2010-10-19T17:56:11Z")
NATO and the EU are fundamentally different. Being a democracy wasn’t required for NATO. It was also set up to deal with the threat of Russia - some would argue that letting Russia in would be a sign that the alliance is no longer needed. Russia probably wouldn’t want to join the EU, and I am not sure the EU would want it. Russia’s economy is heavily energy based - with current energy prices, Russia wouldn’t want to give up the control it can influence over its neighbors by oil and gas supply. And if energy prices decline, the rest of the EU doesn’t want to pick up the tab to stabilize Russia’s economy. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/3 "2010-10-19T18:06:10Z")
But Russia would be receipent to large amounts of EU investment and Aid, just like the former satelite states. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/4 "2010-10-19T18:07:31Z")
Which explains, as I mentioned, why the EU wouldn’t want Russia as a member. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/5 "2010-10-19T18:07:54Z")
Russia will never enter into an alliance with Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/6 "2010-10-19T18:13:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Russia will never enter into an alliance with Germany. Except the Warsaw Pact. It’s better to say Russia will never enter into an alliance with a Germany it can’t control. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/7 "2010-10-19T18:17:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Russia will never enter into an alliance with Germany. Times changes. Germany is probably Russia’s greatest ally in the EU. I’m all for Russian in the EU, the problem is all the eastern European nations which would rather have their nails pulled then accept Russia. I also doubt Russia has much interest. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/8 "2010-10-19T18:22:02Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Except the Warsaw Pact. It’s better to say Russia will never enter into an alliance with a Germany it can’t control. And the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Sometimes I think they’d sign an agreement tomorrow if the result was carving up Poland. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/9 "2010-10-19T18:27:53Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But Russia would be receipent to large amounts of EU investment and Aid, just like the former satelite states. Russia is already the recipient of large amounts of investment, but the fundamental problem with investing in Russia is that it is not protected by the rule of law. Government is still exceedingly corrupt, so when litigation comes about they are quick to simply refuse to investigate claims. On the other end, Russian agencies routinely arrest high ranking businessmen for their political leanings and bring about ridiculous charges to continue wielding power against dissenters. Fundamentally, I don’t think Russia is interested in joining any partnership which would result in some other governing agency having the authority to dictate anything within Russia. They are already involved in NATO through the joint council, but further involvement is touchy on both sides. Russia doesn’t want to join NATO because NATO was expressly created for the purpose of protecting ally countries against Russia. It has called for NATO’s disbanding, and has reacted angrily when countries such as Georgia and Ukraine were interested in being members. So why doesn’t the EU and NATO include Russia? Because the EU and NATO don’t want Russia, and Russia doesn’t want the EU and NATO. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/10 "2010-10-19T18:29:27Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Russia probably wouldn’t want to join the EU, and I am not sure the EU would want it. Russia’s economy is heavily energy based - with current energy prices, Russia wouldn’t want to give up the control it can influence over its neighbors by oil and gas supply. And if energy prices decline, the rest of the EU doesn’t want to pick up the tab to stabilize Russia’s economy. This hits it, I think. Russia is a strong military ally, but you don’t want to get tied up with them economically. Which sort of touches on why I think it would be pointless for Russia to join NATO as well: if the shit hits the fan, Russia is going to do what it pleases regardless of any treaties. ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/11 "2010-10-19T18:38:36Z")
Vova Putin and his country are too awesome to belong to the technocratic contcraption called the EU. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/12 "2010-10-19T18:45:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Russia will never enter into an alliance with Germany. Time was you could have confidently predicted France would never enter into an alliance with Germany. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/13 "2010-10-19T18:47:05Z")
NATO was originally a defensive military alliance against the USSR. Since the end of the Cold War, it has had no clearly defined mission – except the GWOT. Wherein the U.S., Europe, and Russia **are** all on the same side. So I guess a NATO including Russia is not so preposterous. Whether NATO is even necessary any more is a different question. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/14 "2010-10-19T20:06:07Z")
I think people need to not think of Russia as a First World country; it isn’t. Think of it instead as a second-world country. When it ascends to first-world status, then entry to the EU will be on the cards. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/15 "2010-10-19T20:16:51Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I think people need to not think of Russia as a First World country; it isn’t. Think of it instead as a second-world country. When it ascends to first-world status, then entry to the EU will be on the cards. This is a good point, all of Russia should not be looked at like Moscow, dripping with conspicuous newly rich billionaires. That has been the balance that the Russian government has struggled with. In order to increase investor confidence, they have to start fairly enforcing legislation in ways that protect investors. But, the more they do that, the less unilateral control over the media, law enforcement, elections, and prosecuting personal political grudges they have. This is most clearly illustrated with the differences between Medvedev and Putin; Putin is still the way he always was, and Medvedev is trying to convince the West that he wants to move the country into their ranks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/16 "2010-10-19T20:18:35Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I think people need to not think of Russia as a First World country; it isn’t. Think of it instead as a second-world country. When it ascends to first-world status, then entry to the EU will be on the cards. The “second world” used to refer to the Communist Bloc (the nonaligned, postcolonial, emerging world being the “third world”). Now that the Communist Bloc no longer exists, what use is the phrase? As for Russia, it is a fully industrialized country, the size of a continent, with a modern military, a population of 141 million, and a member of the G8. If that’s not a superpower, what is? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/17 "2010-10-19T20:27:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The “second world” used to refer to the Communist Bloc (the nonaligned, postcolonial, emerging world being the “third world”). Now that the Communist Bloc no longer exists, what use is the phrase? > > As for Russia, it is a fully industrialized country, the size of a continent, with a modern military, a population of 141 million, and a member of the G8. If that’s not a superpower, what is? It has an economy almost entirely dependent on gas and oil, an utterly miserable infrastructure, a cripplingly corrupt government, and a complex about nearly everything related to international agreements and cooperatives within its sacrosanct “Sphere of Influence” (See: Georgia, Ukraine, etc.). The news media are puppets of the central government, political positions eliminated at will by the President, and a carefully orchestrated theater of what face of Russia is allowed to be seen by outsiders. Sorry, but that is not what I would consider on the same level as other first-world countries. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/18 "2010-10-19T20:36:33Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > It has an economy almost entirely dependent on gas and oil, an utterly miserable infrastructure, a cripplingly corrupt government, and a complex about nearly everything related to international agreements and cooperatives within its sacrosanct “Sphere of Influence” (See: Georgia, Ukraine, etc.). The news media are puppets of the central government, political positions eliminated at will by the President, and a carefully orchestrated theater of what face of Russia is allowed to be seen by outsiders. Sorry, but that is not what I would consider on the same level as other first-world countries. [shrug] It was an undisputed superpower when it was the Soviet Union, and weren’t things even worse then? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/19 "2010-10-19T20:39:55Z")
No - the population was significantly higher, the military was in MUCH better shape, and corruption was different. Hard to say if the USSR was more or less corrupt, but the Robber-Baron capitalist free for all hasn’t been helpful to Russia’s ability to defend itself. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679/20 "2010-10-19T20:40:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [shrug] It was an undisputed superpower when it was the Soviet Union, and weren’t things even worse then? Russia doesn’t have the power projection capabilities to enforce it’s will beyond it’s immediate neighbours, not to mention, geographically speaking, the centuries-era empire Russia used to be has shunk to a rump Russian state. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-russia-in-nato-eu/557679.md?page=2)