# Why not have voting IDs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332 "2012-09-20T23:18:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/21 "2012-09-21T05:23:22Z")
Here’s one question I’ve not seen asked of voter-suppression advocates: The U.S.A. has a single most-important election once every four years; its scheduling does not come as a surprise. If you wanted to institute a major change in voting laws _Would you choose the period immediately before such a major election to do so?_ > [@HubZilla](#): > > A friend told me a darker side. Only one? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/22 "2012-09-21T05:30:04Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The U.S.A. has a single most-important election once every four years; its scheduling does not come as a surprise. If you wanted to institute a major change in voting laws > _Would you choose the period immediately before such a major election to do so?_ Even the republicans and Bricker now concede that vote suppression is the reason, seriously everyone gets it. I think though people are trying to have discussions about the bigger issue. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/23 "2012-09-21T05:49:00Z")
People really underestimate the complications of being poor when they’ve never been there. > [@grude](#): > > The number of people effected will be significantly reduced, about the only people running into the no-birth cert issue are home births whose parents never filed for one. Or people who have lost theirs in a move, in poor paperwork management or because they’ve been homeless and you don’t generally keep boxes of paperwork with you when you’re homeless. Now, it’s relatively easy to get a replacement birth certificate, but it costs money, and takes about 2 weeks. In my state, you also have to provide a social security card for a driver’s license or state ID. Not just the number, but the actual card. Again, people lose them. You can get a replacement, but again, it’s a 2 week wait. And you have to have your birth certificate (official, not copy) \*before \*you can apply for a replacement SSN card. So that’s at least a month before you can get an ID. Utility bills? Many poor people don’t have utility bills in their name. When you can’t pay your bills, eventually they won’t let you have a utility account in your name, so you beg a family member or friend to open up an account in their name at your address. Many poor people live multiple families to a single address, and only one of those people will have utilities in their name. Others live in assisted living or low income/rent assist apartments where the utilities are paid by the management and rent includes all utilities. Lease agreement/proof of address? Again, poor people often don’t have a lease. They live with someone else who owns the home or has the lease or they’re on a month-to-month verbal agreement with no written lease. When you’re poor with shitty credit, landlords don’t want to give you a lease, because it makes it much harder to evict you if you end up not paying your rent. Not to mention that when you’re poor, your address tends to change pretty frequently. Many people won’t go through the expense and bother to get an ID when they know they’re likely going to be moving in a few weeks or months anyhow, and will just have to do it all over again. None of these are insurmountable, but they all require time and money - two things that poor people are often lacking in - and for what? To “solve” a non-existent problem. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/24 "2012-09-21T06:22:07Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Or people who have lost theirs in a move, in poor paperwork management or because they’ve been homeless and you don’t generally keep boxes of paperwork with you when you’re homeless. Now, it’s relatively easy to get a replacement birth certificate, but it costs money, and takes about 2 weeks. Well that is a different issue than not having a birth certificate, not having a copy handy. Never having had a birth certificate is a way more complicated problem.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/25 "2012-09-21T06:36:21Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Now, it’s relatively easy to get a replacement birth certificate, but it costs money, and takes about 2 weeks. I’m not sure a [New York birth certificate](http://www.health.ny.gov/vital_records/birth.htm) would even be relatively easy to get for someone who has trouble scrounging up the documents needed to get ID. And if you don’t grease them with $15 extra to speed up your application, they say it will take 10 to 12 weeks. (And this isn’t a common problem, but to get a birth certificate, you usually have to know your legal name and at the very least the state in which you were born. Somewhere out there, there’s a Jim who doesn’t know that his legal name is spelled “Jym” and that he was born in another state because his mom went into labor too early during a road trip.) ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/26 "2012-09-21T07:40:02Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Somewhere out there, there’s a Jim who doesn’t know that his legal name is spelled “Jym” and that he was born in another state because his mom went into labor too early during a road trip.) Funny you mention this because I was just trying to find an article about a guy named “Shawn” which was how everyone said his name. His name was really Sean:p ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/27 "2012-09-21T07:46:25Z")
I have to say, it’s interesting to see the left resort to American Exceptionalism for once. The right has healthcare, the left has voting ID. In both cases, the fact that the rest of the civilized world uses it just isn’t a good enough reason. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/28 "2012-09-21T07:55:50Z")
The rest of the civilized world has universal healthcare. The rest of the civilized world also has better healthcare outcomes in terms of things like life expectancies and percent of GDP spent on healthcare. Does the rest of the civilized world also have a provably lower incidence of voting fraud due to impersonation of voters and/or voting by people who are not actually eligible to vote? 'Cause the main argument I see against voter IDs are that they place an undue burden on people (especially poor people) in order to solve a problem that doesn’t actually seem to exist. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/29 "2012-09-21T08:01:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I have to say, it’s interesting to see the left resort to American Exceptionalism for once. The right has healthcare, the left has voting ID. In both cases, the fact that the rest of the civilized world uses it just isn’t a good enough reason. I believe their are ulterior motives going on in the USA concerning the difficulty in obtaining ID that go beyond the recent voter ID issue, I believe intentionally making it difficult for the homeless and transients is only part of the issue. I know it will get everyone’s hackles up but what is obtaining ID like in one of those “third world countries”, well I live in one so I checked. [https://www.ttconnect.gov.tt/gortt/portal/ttconnect/Non\_nationalboardDetail/?WCM\_GLOBAL\_CONTEXT=/gortt/wcm/connect/gortt+web+content/TTConnect/Non-National/Role/ANationalAbroad/GeneralInformation/Obtaining+a+National+Identification+Card](https://www.ttconnect.gov.tt/gortt/portal/ttconnect/Non_nationalboardDetail/?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/gortt/wcm/connect/gortt+web+content/TTConnect/Non-National/Role/ANationalAbroad/GeneralInformation/Obtaining+a+National+Identification+Card) Ok so assuming you are a citizen born inside the country(the most common situation) what do you need to bring? > [@](#): > > An original Birth Certificate and a copy of the Certificate to attach to your application. And how much does it cost? > [@](#): > > There is no charge for your first application for a National ID Card, but you must pay the following renewal/replacement fees: > > ``` > TT$10.00 for your first renewal/replacement. > TT$20.00 for subsequent renewals/replacements. > > ``` The first one is free isn’t only for drug dealers! Oh and registering to vote happens when getting the ID, and the national ID is also your voting ID. Why isn’t it this easy in the USA? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/30 "2012-09-21T08:29:38Z")
When I was 16 years old, I got a letter from the government telling me to come and get my ID. I went down to the Ministry of Interior offices, stood in line, got my picture taken, and a few weeks later got my ID in the mail. I had to bring the ID card of one of my parents; no payment was involved. And that’s it. It’s not a complex process. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/31 "2012-09-21T09:00:21Z")
So “the rest of the civilized world” doesn’t have US-style voter ID laws, then? I’m against voter ID in the US, but mainly because ID can be so hard to get. It’s the _opposite_ of American exceptionalism, really. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/32 "2012-09-21T09:03:49Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > So “the rest of the civilized world” doesn’t have US-style voter ID laws, then? Well I won’t speak for the world, but actually it does seem that presenting ID to vote is the norm. The difference seems to be in how easy and costly it is to acquire said ID. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/33 "2012-09-21T09:09:52Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Does the rest of the civilized world also have a provably lower incidence of voting fraud due to impersonation of voters and/or voting by people who are not actually eligible to vote? 'Cause the main argument I see against voter IDs are that they place an undue burden on people (especially poor people) in order to solve a problem that doesn’t actually seem to exist. My guess is that other countries have higher voting rates due to the fact that voting is more convenient - for instance, you don’t have to remember to register before every vote. I don’t have numbers for you, but I suspect that young and poor people vote \*more \*in places with mandatory voter IDs. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/34 "2012-09-21T09:22:24Z")
And the fact of the matter is, just as other countries with universal healthcare are more healthy overall, countries with national ID systems have higher overall voter turnout. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/35 "2012-09-21T09:34:13Z")
I have to agree with **Alessen** on this. What is the big deal? All voter ID does is show whether or not that person is authorised to vote, being of the right age, citizenship and residency (if required). I really don’t see how this disenfranchises anyone except the clueless. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/36 "2012-09-21T09:39:01Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I have to agree with **Alessen** on this. What is the big deal? All voter ID does is show whether or not that person is authorised to vote, being of the right age, citizenship and residency (if required). I really don’t see how this disenfranchises anyone except the clueless. It is a big deal in the USA because it is a freaking ordeal to get ID, if you made it as easy as showing your birth cert and boom ID I don’t think anyone would care. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/37 "2012-09-21T09:46:31Z")
> [@grude](#): > > It is a big deal in the USA because it is a freaking ordeal to get ID, if you made it as easy as showing your birth cert and boom ID I don’t think anyone would care. Its freaking difficult to get a social security number? A Driving license? So generally, come voting day what happens in the US when you show up at the polls. They just wave you in and let you vote? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/38 "2012-09-21T09:48:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > When I was 16 years old, I got a letter from the government telling me to come and get my ID. I went down to the Ministry of Interior offices, stood in line, got my picture taken, and a few weeks later got my ID in the mail. I had to bring the ID card of one of my parents; no payment was involved. And that’s it. It’s not a complex process. Ditto, except I was 18 and it was optional and I had to pay a fee if I wanted it mailed to me, otherwise come back and collect in two weeks. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/39 "2012-09-21T09:55:19Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Its freaking difficult to get a social security number? A Driving license? > So generally, come voting day what happens in the US when you show up at the polls. They just wave you in and let you vote? I don’t mean this negatively but you’re not understanding the issue. Not only are the types of ID accepted restrictive and in some states suspiciously politically motivated(a concealed carry permit is acceptable?) but the laws have been changed before a major election. Yes it is freaking difficult to get a driver’s license in the USA, you need in addition to a birth cert your social security card AND multiple documents proving residency in the state you’re getting the license at and you’ll pay around twenty to thirty dollars for the pleasure. How many poor, unemployed, or homeless people could get that together or would bother to? What used to happen was exactly as you said, you’d show up to the polls and just vote after giving your name. Each state was different but documents may have been collected when registering to vote only. So grandma who registered 30 years ago and has voted since is suddenly going to get surprise come polling day, ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/40 "2012-09-21T10:01:45Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Ditto, except I was 18 and it was optional and I had to pay a fee if I wanted it mailed to me, otherwise come back and collect in two weeks. Here is the process in my home state of Texas for someone with no photo ID to enter the system: [http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/DriverLicense/applyforID.htm](http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/DriverLicense/applyforID.htm) > [@](#): > > Original or certified copy of a birth certificate issued by the appropriate State Bureau of Vital Statistics or equivalent agency from a U.S. state, U.S. territory, the District of Columbia, or a Canadian province. A birth record issued by a hospital is not acceptable under this category. > > Original or certified copy of U.S. Dept. of State Certification of Birth Abroad (issued to U. S. citizens born abroad) (Form FS-240, DS-1350, or FS-545) > > Original or certified copy of court order with name and date of birth (DOB) indicating an official change of name and/or gender from a U.S. state, U.S. territory, the District of Columbia, or Canadian province. > > These items consist of other records or documents that aid examining personnel in establishing the identity of the applicant. The following items are not all inclusive. The examining or supervisory personnel may determine that an unlisted document meets the department’s needs in establishing identity. > Supporting identification > > Additional records and documents that > aid in establishing identity > > An applicant must present one secondary and two supporting documents to establish identity > > Social Security card (actual card) > > Forms W-2 or 1099 > > Numident record from the Social Security Administration > > Temporary receipt for a Texas driver license or ID (actual receipt) > > Driver license or ID issued by another U.S. state, U.S. territory, the District of Columbia, or Canadian province (unexpired or within two years of the expiration date) (actual card) \* > > Expired Texas driver license or ID (expired more than two years) (actual card) > > School records\* (e.g., report cards, photo ID cards) > > Military records (e.g., Form DD-214) > > Unexpired U.S. military dependant identification card (actual card) > > Original or certified copy of marriage license or divorce decree (U.S. jurisdiction or foreign jurisdiction – if the document is not in English, a certified translation must accompany it) > > Voter registration card (actual card)\* > > Pilot’s license (actual card)\* > > Concealed handgun license (actual card)\* > > Professional license issued by Texas state agency > > ID card issued by government agency\* > > A valid consular document issued by a state or national government > > Texas Inmate ID card or similar form of ID issued by TDCJ > > TDCJ parole or mandatory release certificate > > Federal inmate identification card > > Federal parole or release certificate > > Medicare or Medicaid card (actual card) > > Selective Service card (actual card) > > Immunization records\* > > Tribal membership card from federally-recognized tribe > > Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood > > Unexpired foreign passport > > Insurance policy (e.g., auto, home, life) (valid continuously for the past two years) > > Texas Vehicle title (TRC §521.144) > > Current Texas vehicle registration > > Current Texas boat registration or title > > Veteran’s Administration card (actual card) > > Hospital issued birth record\* > > \*This document must be issued by an institution, entity, or government from a U.S. state, U.S. territory, the District of Columbia, or Canadian province. It is even more restrictive than when I applied, now you need two pieces of supporting documentation instead of just the social security card. Now in addition to all that you also have to prove residency! > [@](#): > > Documents That Prove Residency > > These documents prove residency for a noncommercial driver license or ID card: > > ``` > Current deed, mortgage, monthly mortgage statement, mortgage payment booklet or a residential rental/lease agreement > Valid, unexpired Texas voter registration card > Texas motor vehicle registration or title > Texas boat registration or title > Texas concealed handgun license > Utility statement (including electric, water, natural gas, satellite TV, cable TV or noncellular phone bill) dated within 90 days of the date of application > Selective Service card > Current homeowner’s or renter’s insurance policy or homeowner’s or renter’s insurance statement > Current automobile insurance policy or an automobile insurance statement > Texas high school, college or university report card or transcript for the current school year > W-2 or 1099 tax form from the current tax year > Mail from financial institutions; including checking, savings, investment account and credit card statements dated within 90 days of the date of application > Mail from a federal, state, county or city government agency dated within 90 days of the date of application > Current automobile payment booklet > Current documents issued by the U.S. military indicating residence address > Document from the Texas Department of Criminal Justice indicating the applicant's recent release or parole > Medical or health card > Preprinted paycheck or payment stub dated within 90 days of the date of application > Current Form DS2019, I-20 or a document issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services > > ``` > > NOTE: The two documents must be issued by different companies or agencies. For example, you cannot use both a water bill and electricity bill from the same company. And finally you must pay $16.00 for it. Easy as pie! And note no one made me aware a affidavit could be sworn out for those who could not prove residency, in person in the olden days it was prove residency or forget it. Not sure if that is a new addition or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332.md?page=3)