# Why not have voting IDs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332 "2012-09-20T23:18:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/41 "2012-09-21T10:05:41Z")
> [@grude](#): > > What used to happen was exactly as you said, you’d show up to the polls and just vote after giving your name. Each state was different but documents may have been collected when registering to vote only. So grandma who registered 30 years ago and has voted since is suddenly going to get surprise come polling day, Lets see which of the systems is more arbitrary and has greater potential for abuse and disenfranchisement. The system where an ID proves your right objectively. Or one which is dependant on the whims of the poll workers? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/42 "2012-09-21T10:07:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The right has healthcare, the left has voting ID. In both cases, the fact that the rest of the civilized world uses it just isn’t a good enough reason. Well, it really shouldn’t be a good reason, should it? I mean, if things were reveresed - if the US had European-style health care, and the rest of the world had America’s current health care system - you wouldn’t argue that we should change just because everyone else is doing it, right? The thing about health care is, we can look at how we do it, and look at how you do it, and see that you consistently get better results. With voter ID, we can look at how we do it, and we can look at how you do it, and we can see that we get results that are just about the same. So, what’s the point of changing things? Anyway, I think the real question we need to ask is not, “How expensive is it going to be for a citizen to get one of these cards?” but “How expensive is it going to be for the government to give them to us?” ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/43 "2012-09-21T10:09:59Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Lets see which of the systems is more arbitrary and has greater potential for abuse and disenfranchisement. The system where an ID proves your right objectively. Or one which is dependant on the whims of the poll workers? We’re arguing past each other, no opponent of voter ID thinks presenting ID to vote is a bad idea per se. It is the system in place in the USA that makes it a bad idea and the implementation. And most people fear that voter ID law just makes poll worker whims more of a danger in them giving certain voters a pass. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/44 "2012-09-21T10:14:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, it really shouldn’t be a good reason, should it? I mean, if things were reveresed - if the US had European-style health care, and the rest of the world had America’s current health care system - you wouldn’t argue that we should change just because everyone else is doing it, right? The thing about health care is, we can look at how we do it, and look at how you do it, and see that you consistently get better results. With voter ID, we can look at how we do it, and we can look at how you do it, and we can see that we get results that are just about the same. So, what’s the point of changing things? I don’t think the results are the same. The U.S. has a much lower voter turnout. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/45 "2012-09-21T10:16:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I have to say, it’s interesting to see the left resort to American Exceptionalism for once. The right has healthcare, the left has voting ID. In both cases, the fact that the rest of the civilized world uses it just isn’t a good enough reason. It’s not that. The problem is that the intent of the law is to disenfranchise citizens who will vote Democrat. They change the rules right before an election, in order to make it more difficult for people who are marginalized. There is zero evidence that the current system is being abused\*. There is plenty of evidence that citizens will be disenfranchised. \*At least there’s no evidence that in-person voter impersonation exists. There’s plenty of evidence that people fraudulently fill out absentee ballots, and people occasionally vote in the wrong district. Neither of which are prevented by Photo ID laws. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/46 "2012-09-21T10:35:17Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s not that. The problem is that the intent of the law is to disenfranchise citizens who will vote Democrat. They change the rules right before an election, in order to make it more difficult for people who are marginalized. > > There is zero evidence that the current system is being abused\*. There is plenty of evidence that citizens will be disenfranchised. Specifically, you’re probably correct. Generally speaking, though, I think that a centralized, organized ID system will increase voter turnout and probably help the left far more than the right. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/47 "2012-09-21T10:41:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Generally speaking, though, I think that a centralized, organized ID system will increase voter turnout and probably help the left far more than the right. You’re right, too bad that doesn’t exist in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/48 "2012-09-21T12:27:00Z")
> [@grude](#): > > What used to happen was exactly as you said, you’d show up to the polls and just vote after giving your name. Each state was different but documents may have been collected when registering to vote only. So grandma who registered 30 years ago and has voted since is suddenly going to get surprise come polling day, Where in the US could you just show up to vote? As far as I know, you pretty much have to register to vote in advance of showing up to vote. To register, you have to provide some proof of identification. The issue here is that in the months just prior to a major election, one side wants to change the current rules to introduce a barrier in response to a problem that does not exist. The existing system worked very well, showing a failure rate of approximately .0004%. Comparisons to countries that have a national ID fall flat. The US does not have a national ID. By and large, the most common photo ID that people will have is linked not to being a citizen of the country, but to a need to drive a vehicle. Only about 28% have a passport. We have been a country that has typically eschewed general compulsory registrations, so you get specific niches of registration. These then end up being tied into other systems that need some process of identification. For instance, the Social Security number has become the default identification process, even though it was originally intended only to track people for the Social Security system. It is a de facto national identification system, but no photo identification process has ever been linked to it. I don’t think there would be a particular problem with a national ID system. It would make a lot of things easier, in fact. It would be fine to go that way. What is not fine is to pretend we should go that way in the span of a few months simply for the purpose of influencing an election. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/49 "2012-09-21T12:31:49Z")
And it’s overwhelmingly the Republicans who will go batshit crazy if you bring up the possibility of a national ID card. “Big Brother! 1984!” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/50 "2012-09-21T12:39:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And it’s overwhelmingly the Republicans who will go batshit crazy if you bring up the possibility of a national ID card. “Big Brother! 1984!” I agree. I thought about bringing it up, but hey, if they now think it’s a good and necessary thing, let’s go for it. (Will they flip-flop after November? Probably, but I’m going to hope for integrity from them this time around!) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/51 "2012-09-21T12:39:40Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And it’s overwhelmingly the Republicans who will go batshit crazy if you bring up the possibility of a national ID card. “Big Brother! 1984!” Then don’t call it an ID card. Call it a “Voting Registration Card”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/52 "2012-09-21T12:50:26Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Speaking of vote count… You will note that in the PA case, the anti group identified hundreds of thousands of registered voters who would need to get ID. The pro side did not identify even one instance of voter impersonation. Not one. That’s using the word “case” very loosely. In the actual courtroom, of course, what you claim is blatantly false. The anti group identified exactly two: Bea Bookler and Tyler Florio: > [@Court decision](#): > > These individuals were offered as examples of an unknown number of registered voters who are so compromised as to be unable to endure the travel and process to obtain a photo ID at a PennDOT Drivers’ Licensing Center, but not so infirm as to qualify for absentee voting. The opinion goes on to demonstrate why those claims were untrue. So, speaking of untrue claims, would you like to modify yours? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/53 "2012-09-21T12:51:28Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And it’s overwhelmingly the Republicans who will go batshit crazy if you bring up the possibility of a national ID card. “Big Brother! 1984!” Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/54 "2012-09-21T12:53:41Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s not that. The problem is that the intent of the law is to disenfranchise citizens who will vote Democrat. They change the rules right before an election, in order to make it more difficult for people who are marginalized. > > There is zero evidence that the current system is being abused\*. There is plenty of evidence that citizens will be disenfranchised. > > \*At least there’s no evidence that in-person voter impersonation exists. There’s plenty of evidence that people fraudulently fill out absentee ballots, and people occasionally vote in the wrong district. Neither of which are prevented by Photo ID laws. How about non-citizens who vote, and then deny it? Voter ID would create sufficient evidence for their subsequent prosecution. No voter ID means it’s far more difficult, if not impossible, to secure a conviction – the non-citizen can simply deny it was him. And I know I’ve brought this to your attention before. Did you forget? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/55 "2012-09-21T13:06:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How about non-citizens who vote, and then deny it? They are by default an example of in person voter fraud. Quite simply, this doesn’t happen at a rate even within sight of rounding up to a negligible number. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/56 "2012-09-21T13:27:13Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Where do we draw the line? The line is very clearly delineated: it’s the point at which the number of disenfranchised voters is larger than the number of fraudulent votes. It’s pretty easy to estimate the number of voters this would disenfranchise- how many fraudulent votes will voter ID prevent? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/57 "2012-09-21T13:27:38Z")
Would someone explain to me how these proposed voter IDs differ from the voter registration cards we already have to have (here in Texas anyway)? Basically once you’re 18, if you have the proper documentation, (which IIRC, was a birth certificate or driver’s license or passport, all of which everyone _should_ have if they expect to do anything involving identity verification), you just signed up and sent a copy to the state or something like that. Painless and free. Not that I necessarily agree with this, but I think the main slant of the conservative argument toward voter IDs and things that make voting a bit of a task is that voting’s a right AND a privilege; people who can’t be motivated to spend an hour to vote, or get some ID or do anything that is remotely difficult, probably doesn’t have any business voting in the first place, and by that logic, probably hasn’t put any effort into becoming an informed voter either. That’s what I get from my insanely right-wing cousin and sister-in-law’s facebook posts anyway. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/58 "2012-09-21T13:34:47Z")
The voter ID issue is not about registration, it is about presenting an approved ID at the polls when you actually cast your vote. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/59 "2012-09-21T13:41:25Z")
> [@grude](#): > > The voter ID issue is not about registration, it is about presenting an approved ID at the polls when you actually cast your vote. Of course it’s about registration, because it suggests that the current system of registering and then voting is meaningfully flawed. There is no evidence that this is true. Disentangling the registration process from the voting process plays into the desired confusion that the conservatives want to sow on this topic. It leaves some people with the impression that you can just show up at the polls and cast a vote. This is entirely untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332/60 "2012-09-21T13:42:57Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > We need _another_ ID now? How about just one? Just show it when you vote, ok? Easy right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-have-voting-ids/635332.md?page=4)