# Why not just ban people you don't like/agree with outright? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 18, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905 "2011-06-18T02:40:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/101 "2011-06-21T18:56:49Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I apologise for the clumsy question. > > **Munch** said: > > I assumed that “You’re a liar” is the insult. “You’re backpedaling” is not an insult. Correct. > [@mlees](#): > > That leaves one Non-insult and one grey area. I can’t figure out which of the two remaining phrases are supposed to be which. > > I thought “You’re a liar”, “you’re lying”, and “your statement is a lie” are all saying the same thing, and are all insults in Great Debates. > > Only liars tell lies. A statement contradicted by some objective fact is a mistake or an error, not a deliberate falsehood, which is what a lie is. > > Where did I go wrong? As I understand it: “You’re a liar” means that you _habitually_ tell lies. It’s an insult to your character. “You’re lying” means that you are lying now, though allows that this may be out of character, thus a grey area (but one best avoided anyway). “Your statement is a lie” means that your statement is a falsehood being intentionally disseminated - but _not necessarily_ by you. For instance, if I hear someone say that vaccines cause Autism, and I trustingly repeat that statement, my statement can correctly be called a lie, in that there are people who know it to be untrue who are nonetheless saying it. But _I_ am not lying, per se, because I am ostensibly unaware that the statement is untrue. Therefore, not an insult. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > I did say that I’d watch my language and attitude here, but since the lying q has been asked, may as well chime in. > > So what do you do if someone posts a falsehood again and again? You say exactly that: “You have posted this falsehood again and again, and I have refuted it [thusly] again and again.” If that doesn’t work, you give up and [go to bed.](http://xkcd.com/386/) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/102 "2011-06-21T18:57:07Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > “You’re lying” is definitely a grey area, and I’d guess a mod to at least comment on it. I doubt they would with “your statement is a lie”, because it’s arguing the post, not the poster. > [@Heart of Dorkness](#): > > “Your statement is a lie” means that your statement is a falsehood being intentionally disseminated - but not necessarily by you. For instance, if I hear someone say that vaccines cause Autism, and I trustingly repeat that statement, my statement can correctly be called a lie, in that there are people who know it to be untrue who are nonetheless saying it. But I am not lying, per se, because I am ostensibly unaware that the statement is untrue. Therefore, not an insult. On the second point [of Munch’s post], it seems like some mighty fine hair splitting. But then again, there is a lot of lawyers on this board. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/103 "2011-06-21T18:58:18Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I did say that I’d watch my language and attitude here, but since the lying q has been asked, may as well chime in. > > So what do you do if someone posts a falsehood again and again? I would suggest pointing out the falsehood, and the repetition, and leaving it as an exercise to the reader to decide what this says about the poster. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/104 "2011-06-21T18:59:03Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I thought “You’re a liar”, “you’re lying”, and “your statement is a lie” are all saying the same thing, and are all insults in Great Debates. > > Only liars tell lies. A statement contradicted by some objective fact is a mistake or an error, not a deliberate falsehood, which is what a lie is. > > Where did I go wrong? No, not only liars tell lies. Person A tells person B a lie. Person B believes it and states it to person C. The statement is a lie but person B isn’t lying, he’s just misinformed. I don’t see where “you’re lying” isn’t calling the person a liar though. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/105 "2011-06-21T19:04:57Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > No, not only liars tell lies. Person A tells person B a lie. Person B believes it and states it to person C. The statement is a lie but person B isn’t lying, he’s just misinformed. > > I don’t see where “you’re lying” isn’t calling the person a liar though. But I wouldn’t call person B’s statement (as given by B) a lie, I would call it an error, or some such. My old dictionary [RandomHouse College Dictionary] has 8 definitions of “lie” (apart from the use of the word as in “to lie [lay] down/prostrate”), and all include the distiction of a “knowing” or “deliberate” intent on the part of the speaker to mislead or misrepresent. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/106 "2011-06-21T19:13:17Z")
I should note for the record that although I just explained how “Your statement is a lie” is not an insult, it _is_, according to [GD rules](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9344936&postcount=2): [QUOTE=MEBuckner] However, questioning the intent of another poster in making an arguably false statement–e.g., “You are a liar”, “You are lying”, **“That is a lie”, “That’s not true and you darned well know it isn’t true”** –is crossing the line into attacking the other poster rather than attacking the other poster’s arguments, and will be considered a violation of the rules of the forum. [/QUOTE] [emphasis mine] It does seem that the point is whether the poster is claimed to be _intentionally_ repeating the lie or not (“…and you darned well know it isn’t true”), so you could conceivably get away with something like “I’m sure you’re unaware, but your statement is a lie, spread by malicious and nefarious characters,” but as **CitizenPained** is aiming to get fewer warnings, I wouldn’t recommend she try it. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/107 "2011-06-21T19:17:32Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > But I wouldn’t call person B’s statement (as given by B) a lie, I would call it an error, or some such. > > My old dictionary [RandomHouse College Dictionary] has 8 definitions of “lie” (apart from the use of the word as in “to lie [lay] down/prostrate”), and all include the distiction of a “knowing” or “deliberate” intent on the part of the speaker to mislead or misrepresent. The statement, as originally posted was a lie. The reason person b isn’t lying is because the statement didn’t originate with them but I don’t think that the statement deserves a name change. It’s still a lie and the person hearing it deserves to know it because calling the statement itself an error or even a misunderstanding gives it a shred of possible gray area that stating truthfully that it’s a lie does not. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/108 "2011-06-21T19:19:12Z")
> [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I should note for the record that although I just explained how “Your statement is a lie” is not an insult, it _is_, according to [GD rules](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9344936&postcount=2): > > [emphasis mine] > > It does seem that the point is whether the poster is claimed to be _intentionally_ repeating the lie or not (“…and you darned well know it isn’t true”), so you could conceivably get away with something like “I’m sure you’re unaware, but your statement is a lie, spread by malicious and nefarious characters,” but as **CitizenPained** is aiming to get fewer warnings, I wouldn’t recommend she try it. > [@Disgruntled Penguin](#): > > The statement, as originally posted was a lie. The reason person b isn’t lying is because the statement didn’t originate with them but I don’t think that the statement deserves a name change. It’s still a lie and the person hearing it deserves to know it because calling the statement itself an error or even a misunderstanding gives it a shred of possible gray area that stating truthfully that it’s a lie does not. I could see “That is a lie started by Congressman X” get a pass. I could see “That is a lie started by Congressman X, and I pointed that out to you a month ago” get a pass. But a plain old “That is a lie” falling short of the politeness test, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/109 "2011-06-21T19:19:14Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You linked me to **Tom’s** post. He was **Warned** for the homophobic thing, but not the polygamy hijack. > > Nor was **Dio.** > > I got **two** warnings, so that’s uber fucked up. Okay, against my better judgement, I just used up about two hours of my only day off reading that thread, and here is the most relevant thing I can find to say: If by **“two”** warnings, you are referring to [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13924950&postcount=143) > [@Marley 23](#): > > I did not say you were doing anything malicious, but frankly, you are leaving me with no choice here. I understand how the issue of polygamy came up in this thread. It’s tangential and was detracting from the main topic, so I instructed you and the other posters were to drop it. You might think this thread is already irredeemably off-topic, but that doesn’t entitle you to ignore what I said. (If you think I got it wrong, message me or post in ATMB.) Continuing to post about it here is a deliberate hijack and is ignoring my instructions. This is a formal warning not to do that again. and [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13925115&postcount=148) > [@Marley23](#): > > No, you cannot call someone else in a liar in this forum. It’s written out explicitly in the rules. You also can’t tell someone their argument is bullshit and makes them look stupid. You’ve been here long enough to know this. I have to disagree. The first one is clearly labeled as a mod note; only the second is labeled as a warning. The first has the force of a directive or instruction (for all that he uses the word “warning” in his phraseology. The second one is the one that goes into your file under “Warnings,” and in the event that you are ever banned with an ATMB thread outlining the justifications, the second one is the one that will be cited. Mods, I’ll happily accept instruction if I’m mistaken about this. **CP** , please let me know if I missed some other officially-labeled “warning” that you were issued. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/110 "2011-06-21T19:31:36Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I could see “That is a lie started by Congressman X” get a pass. I could see “That is a lie started by Congressman X, and I pointed that out to you a month ago” get a pass. But a plain old “That is a lie” falling short of the politeness test, IMO. No doubt it’s not at all polite and it’s bad debate but is it worthy of a warning? I don’t think it’s at that level. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/111 "2011-06-21T19:35:40Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Okay, against my better judgement, I just used up about two hours of my only day off reading that thread, and here is the most relevant thing I can find to say: > > If by **“two”** warnings, you are referring to [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13924950&postcount=143)and [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13925115&postcount=148)I have to disagree. The first one is clearly labeled as a mod note; only the second is labeled as a warning. > > The first has the force of a directive or instruction (for all that he uses the word “warning” in his phraseology. The second one is the one that goes into your file under “Warnings,” and in the event that you are ever banned with an ATMB thread outlining the justifications, the second one is the one that will be cited. > > Mods, I’ll happily accept instruction if I’m mistaken about this. > > **CP** , please let me know if I missed some other officially-labeled “warning” that you were issued. I think that using the words “this is a formal warning not to do that again” surely would sound like a warning to someone who’s only been here a couple of months and may not know the system that well. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/112 "2011-06-21T19:39:03Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > No doubt it’s not at all polite and it’s bad debate but is it worthy of a warning? I don’t think it’s at that level. _shrug_ “You’re a liar.” breaks the rules in the GD subforum. “That is a lie.” is an equivelant statement to me. But, I am not a mod (nor do I have the temperment to be one). If a mod states that “That is a lie” is attacking the post and not the poster, so be it. They are the ones wearing the jackboots. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/113 "2011-06-21T20:42:27Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I have to disagree. The first one is clearly labeled as a mod note; only the second is labeled as a warning. The first one is labeled “Moderating,” not “Mod Note.” Both posts are notifications that **Citizen Pained** had received an official warning for her behavior. When someone is warned, the board software automatically sends them a PM informing them that they’ve received a warning, so even if its unclear to a third party (and I think the line mentioned by **Disgruntled Penguin** makes it clear that the first post was an official warning) its generally much less ambiguous to the person being warned. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/114 "2011-06-22T01:12:20Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I apologise for the clumsy question. Actually, re-reading the several posts, I apologize for not making my point clearer. The question regarding accusations of lying in GD comes up from time to time and I simply used the fact that it had come up again as an excuse to discuss the general rule. I was not really responding to a specific point made or asked in this thread. = = = Regarding “you’re backpedalling” and similar constructions, I would not generally be inclined to issue a Warning for them on the grounds that an accusation that one is changing one’s position is not the same as an accusation that one deliberately posted false information. (Of course, if phrased in such a way as to appear to be an accusation of lying, it would probably get a Mod Note at the least.) I am generally tolerant of the claim that “that statement is a lie” PROVIDED that the statement is a quote from an off-board source and the accusation of lying is quite careful to indicate that the original source was lying, not the poster. If one thinks that it might not be clear who is going to be perceived as the liar, it is better to find a different way to make the accusation. = = = Regarding the separate question of how to respond to a poster who continually posts incorrect information, one is perfectly free to state, “that is [still] not correct” on each occasion that they make their point. If one is in desperate need to point out that the poster is lying, we have The BBQ Pit to serve that purpose. = = = As to the more general claim that “a person who tells a lie is a liar,” I would tend to disagree, but not enough to keep this thread alive for another dozen exchanges. To me, a liar is one who habitually lies or whose approach to speaking results in frequent lies. Pretty nearly everyone lies at some point, (even if only to refrain from telling one’s spouse how their latest hair style makes them really look). When I use (or hear) the word liar, I think of a person who generally cannot be trusted due to the number of lies he or she tells. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/115 "2011-06-22T14:23:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, re-reading the several posts, I apologize for not making my point clearer. > > \ Thanks for the reply! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905/116 "2011-06-23T22:43:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The first one is labeled “Moderating,” not “Mod Note.” Both posts are notifications that **Citizen Pained** had received an official warning for her behavior. When someone is warned, the board software automatically sends them a PM informing them that they’ve received a warning, so even if its unclear to a third party (and I think the line mentioned by **Disgruntled Penguin** makes it clear that the first post was an official warning) its generally much less ambiguous to the person being warned. Ah. My mistake then. Thank you for the instruction. Carry on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-ban-people-you-dont-like-agree-with-outright/585905.md?page=5)