Why not just conquer Falluja by siege?

[furt]

@BrainGlutton

Germany and Japan were real nations, with a well-developed sense of national identity …

And in both cases there was a deeply-entrenched ideology of racial superiority; far more deeply so in Japan’s case. We ripped out a lot of the guts of Japanese culture – making the emperor admit his non-deity was deeply, deeply humiliating – replaced it with stuff we preferred, and made it stick. There’s no telling whether we will be able to do it again; but it can be done.

[Ryan_Liam]

@BrainGlutton

And there’s another difference: In the environment of the Cold War, the American troops occupying West Germany, Japan and South Korea could also be viewed, with some justice, as defending those countries against the Communist menace. But nobody in Iraq is likely to think American troops are there to defend them against any of the countries with whom they were at war or on bad terms when Hussein ruled – Iran, SA, Turkey. In fact, Iraq’s Shi’ites might well prefer Iranian occupation to American occupation.

How about Islamist terrorists (I know they’re not doing a good job) Sh’ite *Arabs * are not the same as Iranians.

[furt]

@BrainGlutton

Germany and Japan were real nations, with a well-developed sense of national identity …

And in both cases there was a deeply-entrenched ideology of racial superiority; far more deeply so in Japan’s case. We ripped out a lot of the guts of Japanese culture – making the emperor admit his non-deity was deeply, deeply humiliating – replaced it with stuff we preferred, and made it stick. There’s no telling whether we will be able to do it again; but it can be done.

But nobody in Iraq is likely to think American troops are there to defend them against any of the countries with whom they were at war or on bad terms when Hussein ruled – Iran, SA, Turkey.

Not true. I’ve read numerous quotes from Iraqis about resenting the fundamentalists coming in from Syria, etc.

If some Saudi starts shooting at US troops from your neighborhood, and the US shoots back and blows up your neighborhood, you’ll probably dislike both of them.

[Ryan_Liam]

@BrainGlutton

Germany and Japan were real nations, with a well-developed sense of national identity, before the U.S. ever occupied them. They were also highly modernized and industrialized nations with a well-established tradition of secular rule of law, and where the concept of parliamentary government was at any rate not a strange and alien one. Conditions in Iraq are very different. It is not a real nation. In its long history it has at various times been ruled by independent monarchical city-states, by foreign empires, by tribal leaders, by theocrats, by monarchies, by dictatorships, but never by anything close to a democratic or republican government. I hope, but don’t believe, that we can pull off a similar feat of democracy-building there.

Why did you leave out Korea?

[furt]

@xtisme

They are fighting for personal power and are destabalizing the nation. They are fighting because they don’t wish to join the process which MIGHT allow the Iraqi’s to vote for their own government sometime next year. Why?

I think you err in assuming they have political goals. The leadership likely does … but the rank and file are very likely young men for whom defying the Yankee Oppressor is an end in itself. It’s true forAl-Quaeda type terrorists, and I think it’s true for some of these guys.

Why resist? You’re kidding, right? That this day might not go by from now “to the ending of the world / But we in it shall be remembered.” Because “how can man die better / Than facing fearful odds / For the ashes of his fathers / And the temples of his Gods.” For glory, for honor, for manhood, for Allah. To prove yourself worthy of your ancestors. Frankly, were I a 16-year-old Iraqi, I might be there myself.

[clairobscur]

@furt

Not true. I’ve read numerous quotes from Iraqis about resenting the fundamentalists coming in from Syria, etc.

There are people resenting them even amongst the guerillas in Fallujah, according to the interviews I read of Irakis leaders/fighters in this city (where several different groups with different motives are present).

[BrainGlutton]

@Ryan_Liam

Why did you leave out Korea?

Still different situation – a real nation, but much more socially and technologically primitive than Japan, and, as we might have expected, it took much longer to build real democracy there.

[clairobscur]

@furt

I think you err in assuming they have political goals. The leadership likely does … but the rank and file are very likely young men for whom defying the Yankee Oppressor is an end in itself. It’s true for.

Even amongst the leaders, there are very different views and goals. Still according to the interviews I was refering to above, there was a former Iraki general who, according to him, had tried to cooperate with the US before, during and after the war to no avail, and harbored a deep resentment towards the US, a moderate local cleric, a fundamentalist one (IIRC, they couldn’t interview any leader of the arab “foreign fighters”)… All shared a common despise and/or hatred for the current Iraki government, though. They definitely weren’t all fundamentalist terrorists.
Concerning the rank, when I watched the news tonight, there was a report from a journalist in Fallujah, that showed american soldiers in training, Iraki fighters, people in the street, etc… Amongst the people appearing in the footage was a group of hooded fighters. The journalist stated that, depsite the hoods, he estimated most of them were 16-18 y.o.

Concerning the hopes these people may have, they interviewed a middle-aged woman (50- 60, slightly obese, t the kind of ennemy you would expect), who shouted that she had seen 25 of her neighbors killed in a bombing, and that she was willing to strap dynamite on herself in order to blow up some american soldiers. So, some of them obviously don’t care about being killed for their cause.
Anyway, according to what I read and heard during the last days, they expect that an uprise will happen all over Irak, and in particular in Baghdad, when the american attack will begin. Apparently, they know or believe that such an uprising is being organized, so they hope that if they resist long enough, the US army might have to back off if the uprising is large enough. Or that at the very least, there will be a “Remember Alamo” effect even if they’re anihilated.

As usual, there was a footage of a children removed from a destroyed building, of a collapsed hospital, of some Iraki shouting that there never was any terrorist there, etc…