# Why not just dispense with gendered language/pronouns in English? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456 "2019-07-03T16:18:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/141 "2019-07-09T09:35:26Z")
> [@Kyomara](#): > > That’s hilarious. > > Think about all the words men and white people can no longer get away with calling **women** and minorities. > > Think about the extinction of the formal address of a woman as “Mrs.” plus her husband’s name. > > And I would posit that a person telling you they prefer to be called by a particular pronoun immediately changes the way you think about them, even if it’s in a negative way. > > Words have meaning. That’s the whole point. I tried. I got nothing. Enlighten me you mewling quim, what words can men no longer get away with calling women? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/142 "2019-07-09T09:41:27Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > I tried. I got nothing. Enlighten me you mewling quim, what words can men no longer get away with calling women? And by the way…im making a joke before someone swoops in and “Shows how i cant get away with that” ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/143 "2019-07-09T11:45:02Z")
> [@Kyomara](#): > > That’s hilarious. > > Think about all the words men and white people can no longer get away with calling women and minorities. > > Think about the extinction of the formal address of a woman as “Mrs.” plus her husband’s name. > > And I would posit that a person telling you they prefer to be called by a particular pronoun immediately changes the way you think about them, even if it’s in a negative way. > > Words have meaning. That’s the whole point. Yes, I guess we don’t say “Mrs Spouse Name” all the time. Did this change proceed or follow changes in how society respects women? Even with this evolution of language, have we had a woman President? Are women’s reproductive rights universally respected? Only 5% of CEOs are women. Women doctors are regularly referred to as nurses by patients. There’s a huge amount of sexual harassment in the workplace even today. Huge percentages of women have reported they have been sexually assaulted and do not expect justice. There is a large gap in pay and achievement between women and men. But at least we don’t say “Mrs Spouse Name”. I think I can make roughly the same point with respect to how Black people are actually treated in America despite the evolution of our language. Let’s go ahead and use silly new pronouns with a bunch of unnecessary accents, and let’s get it adopted. Let’s do this and wait 30 years and see that’s it has amounted to nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/144 "2019-07-09T12:00:19Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’ve dabbled a bit with German, French, Italian, and Spanish, and I love those languages _except_ for the gender issue. If gender is annoying in English, it’s far worse in those languages, which require memorization of nonsensical, arbitrary gendering of nouns. > > I love learning case, person, number: etc., but gender? Ugh. So annoying. Shrug, to those of us who grew up with those languages there is no memorization of gender. We just learn the word. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/145 "2019-07-09T12:01:40Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Shrug, to those of us who grew up with those languages there is no memorization of gender. We just learn the word. I know that. That wasn’t my point. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/146 "2019-07-09T12:09:36Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Yes, I guess we don’t say “Mrs Spouse Name” all the time. Did this change proceed or follow changes in how society respects women? Even with this evolution of language, have we had a woman President? Are women’s reproductive rights universally respected? Only 5% of CEOs are women. Women doctors are regularly referred to as nurses by patients. There’s a huge amount of sexual harassment in the workplace even today. Huge percentages of women have reported they have been sexually assaulted and do not expect justice. There is a large gap in pay and achievement between women and men. But at least we don’t say “Mrs Spouse Name”. > > I think I can make roughly the same point with respect to how Black people are actually treated in America despite the evolution of our language. > > Let’s go ahead and use silly new pronouns with a bunch of unnecessary accents, and let’s get it adopted. Let’s do this and wait 30 years and see that’s it has amounted to nothing. So, just to be clear, are you saying: 1. Things have never improved for disadvantaged groups. 2. Language never has any role to play in the development or reflection of societal attitudes and institutions. 3. The impact that an individual might feel when confronted with exclusionary language should always be ignored. Because at least one of those things is obviously wrong. Disparaging, exclusionary, and discriminatory language is part of the institutional structure of maintaining and perpetuating discriminatory power structures. The N-word isn’t the most vile word in American English just by coincidence. It’s because it’s part and parcel of a bloody, murderous social system that used physical and intellectual violence to maintain the social hierarchy. And studies have shown that the difference between words like “fireman” and “firefighter” play a role in whether young girls can envision themselves in a role and whether society at large can envision it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/147 "2019-07-09T18:21:57Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’ve been in circumstances in which everyone is asked their pronoun preferences. So that by itself disproves “no one.” I asked the local baseball team their pronouns. First base is Who, second base is They. Pat, the batter, hit a pop fly. Second base caught it, and threw it to first base. I missed the play, so I asked what happened. “Who made the catch?” “No, they made the catch.” “Who?” “No, they!” “Who’s they?” “No - Who’s who!” “What the fuck!” “THIRD BASE!” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/148 "2019-07-10T04:40:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Spoiler alert: They will go nowhere, just like all the previous plans for English-language spelling reform. Can’t blame a guy for trying, though. Oh no. They will change some words, but not others, and in some places, but not in others… quite a few of the inconsistencies come from the partial successes of spelling reforms and/or hypercorrections (people thinking that something was being “spelled wrong” because they misunderstood it or attributed the wrong origin to it). ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/149 "2019-07-10T11:16:14Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > So, just to be clear, are you saying: > > 1. Things have never improved for disadvantaged groups. > > 2. Language never has any role to play in the development or reflection of societal attitudes and institutions. > > 3. The impact that an individual might feel when confronted with exclusionary language should always be ignored. > > Because at least one of those things is obviously wrong. Disparaging, exclusionary, and discriminatory language is part of the institutional structure of maintaining and perpetuating discriminatory power structures. > > The N-word isn’t the most vile word in American English just by coincidence. It’s because it’s part and parcel of a bloody, murderous social system that used physical and intellectual violence to maintain the social hierarchy. > > And studies have shown that the difference between words like “fireman” and “firefighter” play a role in whether young girls can envision themselves in a role and whether society at large can envision it. I agree there is some relationship between the terms we use to describe or refer to minority groups and society accommodating and including these groups. I doubt a top-down change in language is what drives this relationship. If I were to guess why this relationship exists, it might be because of empathy. Those who empathize with trans people are more willing to change their language, change institutional norms, and end discriminatory practices. But among these changes made in support of this disadvantaged group or some other disadvantaged group, language is the least consequential. The language will change as a result of attitudes, it won’t change attitudes. Itfaiyeci is Turkish for firefighter. Itfaiye is the fire department and the suffix -ci means a worker at the fire department. It’s completely gender neutral. I doubt 1% of firefighters are female in Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/150 "2019-07-10T11:32:17Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I doubt a top-down change in language is what drives this relationship. Is this what you think this thread is about? Is this what you believe the issue of language and vocabulary is generally about? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/151 "2019-07-10T11:50:35Z")
I think the thread is about dispensing with gendered language/pronouns in English. One component of that is to ask: “What’s the point?”. So that’s what I am addressing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/152 "2019-07-10T12:01:42Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I think the thread is about dispensing with gendered language/pronouns in English. One component of that is to ask: “What’s the point?”. So that’s what I am addressing. When an argument is directed to a proposition that hasn’t been made, that’s generally known as a straw man. There’s a reason that this is considered a criticism of an argument style. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/153 "2019-07-10T12:15:04Z")
Ok, I’ll take that as you can’t answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/154 "2019-07-10T13:30:07Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > When an argument is directed to a proposition that hasn’t been made, that’s generally known as a straw man. There’s a reason that this is considered a criticism of an argument style. Could you clarify? I’m not seeing the straw man you’re seeing, which may mean I and others aren’t clear on the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/155 "2019-07-10T13:35:33Z")
This seems like a strawman given that I can’t find anyone proposing a top-down directed change in language, and that the thread is about why _not_ dispense with gendered language, in other words “are there advantages to keeping gendered language”, rather than “are there advantages to removing gendered language.” If the thread were about the latter, then a natural question would be how to achieve this and what benefits it would bring, but it isn’t, as far as I can tell. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I doubt a top-down change in language is what drives this relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/156 "2019-07-10T13:58:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Could you clarify? I’m not seeing the straw man you’re seeing, which may mean I and others aren’t clear on the OP. This is what I’m identifying as a straw man. > [@](#): > > I doubt a top-down change in language is what drives this relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/157 "2019-07-10T14:50:20Z")
This is my mistake. I didn’t realize there were people in this world who have this much enthusiasm over the mechanics of the English language with an emphasis on pronouns. I was trying to fit this into the larger political context, probably because of the specific types of terms, but I think I get it now. It doesn’t matter the point, it only matters whether there is any English-specific impediment to adopting genderless pronouns. That’s the entire scope of the thread. Please forgive my intrusion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/158 "2019-07-10T14:52:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is what I’m identifying as a straw man. Got it. Yeah, that’s a straw man. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/159 "2019-07-10T15:15:23Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I didn’t realize there were people in this world who have this much enthusiasm over the mechanics of the English language with an emphasis on pronouns. Language nerds are a thing. 🆒 – **Pleonast** , short for “pleonastic pronoun” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456/160 "2019-07-10T17:41:14Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > in other words “are there advantages to keeping gendered language”… Right, pretty much. And so far, no one so far as I have noticed has made the case that a gendered pronoun system (and that includes a system that accounts for genders other than male and female) is better than a system that doesn’t reference gender at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-just-dispense-with-gendered-language-pronouns-in-english/836456.md?page=9)