# Why not let prisoners kill themselves? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584 "2012-02-02T21:50:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/41 "2012-02-03T12:39:12Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > How strange, then, that the people who actually create and maintain the whole system of criminal justice refer to _penal_ codes and _penitentiaries_. Are you suggesting that they are all being disingenuous? Well, actually, the term penitentiary originally referred to a place designed expressly to reform prisoners by helping them get right with God. From [Wikipedia:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_State_Penitentiary) > [@](#): > > The Penitentiary was intended not simply to punish, but to move the criminal toward spiritual reflection and change. Proponents of the system believed strongly that the criminals, exposed, in silence, to thoughts of their behavior and the ugliness of their crimes, would become genuinely penitent. In reality, the guards and councilors of the facility designed a variety of physical and psychological torture regimens for various infractions, including dousing prisoners in freezing water outside during winter months, chaining their tongues to their wrists in a fashion such that struggling against the chains could cause the tongue to tear, strapping prisoners into chairs with tight leather restraints for days on end, and putting them into a pit called “The Hole” dug under cellblock 14 where they would have no light, no human contact, and little food for as long as two weeks. I would be funny if it weren’t so sad. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/42 "2012-02-03T13:54:15Z")
I think the problem is that there’s a fine line between “allowing” suicide and “encouraging” suicide. That said, I do think that the freedom to suicide should be one freedom we all should have. Not that I want to, mind you- but if my life isn’t my own to take or give, whose is it? ---
**Author:** ![KneeSid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dec6dc/32.png) [@KneeSid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneeSid)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/43 "2012-02-03T14:51:47Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Why let them avoid their punishment? Wow what a great answer 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/44 "2012-02-03T15:00:02Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Don’t forget David Milgaard while you’re throwing out examples of extreme exceptions to what we have to assume is a fair and just system. It’ll be a lot less fair and just if we start trying to kill off prisoners who weren’t sentenced to death. This is a civilized society. If you’re claiming we’re just giving people a choice (which is absolute bullshit; there’s no way this barbaric idea would end up being anything less than a prisoner being goaded into suicide) then what’s the point of even doing anything? Prisoners have plenty of opportunity to commit suicide. Why are we even talking about providing the tools to do it? Sorry, this isn’t Iran or Saudi Arabia. We don’t let the state kill people in cold blood here. I cerainly do appreciate that the Senator’s daughter was murdered and that this colours his opinions. But with due respect to him, this is why we don’t let people with emotional investment in the matter determine how the criminal justice system works; we’ll end up being a pack of savages exacting revenge on each other. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/45 "2012-02-03T15:11:10Z")
I am opposed to capital punishment, but I would suport a program of assisted suicide for inmates serving a life sentence with no chance of parole. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/46 "2012-02-03T15:20:00Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I imagine a major reason is that suicides and “suicides” are counter to good order in the prison. Think of it from the prison staff point of view. You don’t want to have to investigate all these suicides as possible murders, you don’t want your staff accused of killing prisoners, you don’t want inmates rioting over the suspicious deaths of other prisoners. > > There may be a fair number of prison staffers who enjoy making prisoner’s lives more miserable, up to and including driving them to suicide, helping them to commit suicide, or murdering them and disguising it as suicide. But most staffers would just rather have a quiet day at work where nothing out of the ordinary happens and there’s no paperwork to fill out. That’s an excellent point (and one that neatly sidesteps the whole moral/ethical dilemma). I would also add that the more violent prisoners are already stripped of their shoelaces, belts, any cutting object etc… anything that could be used aggressively ; and y’all want to give them rope, a.k.a. weapons they can use against their cellmates or even conceivably to disable guards ? Or even use to climb over walls and fences, come to think of it. Doesn’t strike me as all that smart. [QUOTE=Qin Shi Huangdi] Because they are human beings. [/QUOTE] _double take_ Huh. You surprise me, I thought you of all peeps would be all for it. Kudos. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/47 "2012-02-03T18:11:54Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Don’t forget David Milgaard while you’re throwing out examples of extreme exceptions to what we have to assume is a fair and just system. The system often isn’t fair or just, though, and the point stands regardless of how common wrongful convictions are. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/48 "2012-02-03T19:21:05Z")
Would I want the state to be supplying rope to murderers rapists et al? No not really, all the paperwork and questions the staff have to deal with, not fair to them, not to mention the possibility of escape or killing another inmate or a staff member. Of course, it _would_ save us taxpayers some money though. On the other hand, if some asshole scum rapes and murders one of my family, I’ll gladly supply the rope! I think its perspective really. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/49 "2012-02-03T19:54:20Z")
Because then you can turn a non-capital conviction into a capital conviction in effect, by driving prisoners to suicide. Bad policy, invites bad behavior and disproportionate punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/50 "2012-02-03T20:02:34Z")
> [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](#): > > Of course, it _would_ save us taxpayers some money though. Only if you ignore some truly staggering lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/51 "2012-02-03T20:05:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Only if you ignore some truly staggering lawsuits. With the proliferation of privately owned prisons, this might actually not be a taxpayer issue, but you do make a good point. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/52 "2012-02-03T20:10:09Z")
> [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](#): > > With the proliferation of privately owned prisons There are about 260 of them in the country. It’s not much of a proliferation. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/53 "2012-02-03T20:20:27Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > A Canadian politician has made the news for saying, "“Basically I think that every murderer should have a rope in his cell and he can decide on his own life.” I’d vote for that guy. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/54 "2012-02-03T20:36:48Z")
I don’t believe society should ever encourage people to commit suicide, whether they be criminals or not. Actively giving them tools to which commit suicide is tantamount to encouraging it, and that’s just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/55 "2012-02-03T20:51:59Z")
So many of the comments in discussions like this always make me sad and angry at the same time. This is why labeling is so dangerous. By separating people into different categories it allows even decent human beings to advocate inhuman treatment. If you think of them as people who have been convicted of crimes instead of criminals then it’s obvious why we shouldn’t encourage them to kill themselves. Because they are people. You treat people as you would like to be treated. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/56 "2012-02-04T00:19:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There are about 260 of them in the country. It’s not much of a proliferation. Hmmmm…got me there. Seems my taxpayer savings idea just got shot down. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/57 "2012-02-04T01:05:52Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > You treat people as you would like to be treated. Gee, I must be broken then as I tend to treat people punching me in the head differently than what I would normally want to treat others. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/58 "2012-02-04T01:15:10Z")
In the U.S. putting a rope in a prisoners cell and s/he hangs himself, IMO would violate the 8th AM. NOW, this has never happended, as ropes were never put in cells, but since the facts are that, my comment is based on those facts. …A prison official acts with _deliberate indifference_ when he, through more than mere negligence, has a (1) subjective knowledge of a risk of serious harm; and (2) he disregards that risk… ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/59 "2012-02-04T02:42:27Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Gee, I must be broken then as I tend to treat people punching me in the head differently than what I would normally want to treat others. I don’t see what this has to do with anything. These people are no threat to you. They are incarcerated. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584/60 "2012-02-04T02:45:53Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > I agree. I’ve never in my life contemplated suicide or been depressed or any of that, but if you told me I had to go to prison for 20+ years, I’d do whatever it took to off myself. That’s not crazy, that’s a rational choice. And yeah, I’d support assisted suicide for any prisoner who wants it. Yes, but if your brain is functioning correctly, you’ll get used to it. It is only the depressed who don’t adapt. Have you never noticed that people can live what you consider to be a really sad life and not really be unhappy? Also, since you say you have never actually contemplated suicide, it is quite likely that you do not realize what that entails. There is a natural desire in every mentally well person to stay alive. In fact, part of the torture of suicidal thoughts is realizing that suicide is hard to garner up the willpower to actually follow through with–and that’s when you are already messed up. Then again, so many of you seem to have more cavalier attitudes towards your impending death then I thought possible, so maybe you guys are just completely different from anyone I’ve discussed this with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-prisoners-kill-themselves/611584.md?page=4)