# Why not let Texas secede? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264 "2013-10-15T00:40:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/81 "2013-10-16T21:48:44Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The Confederacy didn’t have nukes. Neither did Lincoln. But he **did** have Sherman. Next best thing… ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/82 "2013-10-16T22:38:17Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Neither did Lincoln. You saying Lincoln would have nuked the Union to save it? Point is, if a state with nuclear weapons says they’re not part of the U.S. anymore the rest of the U.S. isn’t “just” going to invade them. MAD and all that. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/83 "2013-10-16T22:41:17Z")
To those who think Texas would just wither and die without the rest of the U.S., or be “owned” by Mexico in a few months/years… […the economy of Texas.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas#Defense) [And their defense industry appears…substantial.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas#Defense) This isn’t to justify partisan blather about secession. Just to throw some cold water of reality in the faces of certain people who have some caricature idea of Texas as desert and tumbleweeds punctuated by the occasional ranch and rodeo. Texas can feed itself, clothe itself, power itself, and defend itself quite well [without U.S. Federal assistance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas#Taxes). And without [incurring crippling deficits.](http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21572208-unexpected-surplus-points-pitfalls-texan-austerity-too-much-good-thing) The above argues that it can also govern itself pretty successfully. ---
**Author:** ![Leoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/58956e/32.png) [@Leoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leoj)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/84 "2013-10-16T23:07:10Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > You saying Lincoln would have nuked the Union to save it? > > Point is, if a state with nuclear weapons says they’re not part of the U.S. anymore the rest of the U.S. isn’t “just” going to invade them. MAD and all that. No U.S. state has its own nuclear weapons. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/85 "2013-10-16T23:19:45Z")
> [@Leoj](#): > > No U.S. state has its own nuclear weapons. Finders keepers. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/86 "2013-10-16T23:45:31Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > The above argues that it can also govern itself pretty successfully. Well, before you go all crazy on that, ExTank, remember that Texas also has enormous expenses covered by the federal government. Border security, welfare and food stamps (a huge user) and other federal programs would suddenly be added to the Texas budget. The whole ‘low tax’ thing would go out the window. Plus, having a large defense industry isn’t the same as having a large defense infrastructure. Having Raytheon or General Dynamics won’t do a thing to defend against invasion or whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![Leoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/58956e/32.png) [@Leoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leoj)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/87 "2013-10-16T23:46:09Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Finders keepers. So you think the National Guard or state police or whoever is just going to stroll in to an Air Force or Navy base and commandeer those weapons? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/88 "2013-10-16T23:52:30Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Quite possibly, though that brings up an interesting questio: why do liberal Democrats keep fleeing from the states where their values reign supreme and moving to conservative states? Do you have some data to support the idea that this migration is primarily liberal democrats? > [@](#): > > Because taxes and/or crime are too high in liberal states, perhaps? Bzzzt! Oh! Thank you so much for playing! Crime is higher in red states. Murders are higher and they tend to be the states ranked as most dangerous. We just did this in the thread in the pit. As for taxes, I’m not actually sure of the rankings, but off the cuff I don’t dispute it. I would argue that those taxes help the make the blue states less dangerous and crime ridden, to yield better standardized test scores, to be ranked more healthy, and so on and so forth. > [@](#): > > Because there aren’t any jobs being produced in liberal states? Perhaps. Bzzzt! Nice try. Here’s your copy of the home game. Even on measures of economic and job growth, as per cites someone else provided in the pit thread, the top 10 states were split 6/4. And that’s including favorable tax structures (which again are part of the overall problem). ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/89 "2013-10-16T23:54:45Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > To those who think Texas would just wither and die without the rest of the U.S., or be “owned” by Mexico in a few months/years… > > […the economy of Texas.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas#Defense) > > [And their defense industry appears…substantial.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas#Defense) > > This isn’t to justify partisan blather about secession. Just to throw some cold water of reality in the faces of certain people who have some caricature idea of Texas as desert and tumbleweeds punctuated by the occasional ranch and rodeo. > > Texas can feed itself, clothe itself, power itself, and defend itself quite well [without U.S. Federal assistance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas#Taxes). And without [incurring crippling deficits.](http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21572208-unexpected-surplus-points-pitfalls-texan-austerity-too-much-good-thing) > > The above argues that it can also govern itself pretty successfully. That’s a great argument! Unfortunately it’s an argument against an assertion nobody has made. I went back through the thread, and nobody has suggested any such thing about Texas. Now, I’m sure Texas will feel differently about things when they have to carry their sorry ass red state brethren all on their own. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/90 "2013-10-16T23:55:00Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Well, before you go all crazy on that, ExTank, remember that Texas also has enormous expenses covered by the federal government. Border security, welfare and food stamps (a huge user) and other federal programs would suddenly be added to the Texas budget. The whole ‘low tax’ thing would go out the window. > > Plus, having a large defense industry isn’t the same as having a large defense infrastructure. Having Raytheon or General Dynamics won’t do a thing to defend against invasion or whatnot. Presumably, Texas would get to keep it’s own national guard forces if there was a split, along with the equipment. IIRC, the Texas National Guard is fairly substantial, with both ground and air elements. As to the other, I’m guessing that Texas would do fine, considering that Texans pay their federal taxes currently, which again presumably would be applied to cover Texas needs alone. Considering the large natural resources and heavy industry, they are one of the few states that COULD do fairly well on their own if this ridiculous split ever became more than a fantasy. I would have listed California as one of the few other states that could do this a few years ago, but I don’t think they could these days. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/91 "2013-10-17T00:08:58Z")
I was hoping this would be a pro-Tex thread discussion, but no it’s just another slap in the face to Texans. Born and raised there Fort Worth, Waco and Houston and I still love the Houston Oilers (now called the Tennessee Titans more than the Houston Texans … Texas history lessons taught us that when Texas joined the union they reserved the right to split into five states if they so decided down the road to do so. (notice no legalist talking just plain truth) Texas was a sovereign republic for 10 years Four US Presidents were from Texas and I don’t care if you liked them or not. Presidents Dwight Eisenhower and Lyndon Johnson were born in Texas President Bush and his son President Bush were from Texas or at least still live there If you don’t like Ted Cruz that’s just fine, but you don’t to knock the whole state of Texas. and if they did split from the United States (can we really be sure of that word united?) Mexico would be her best friend not her enemy … heck we should even charge $50 a car, truck and bus just to enter the great state of Texas and give the US treasury %10 wiping out their debt problems. Like a famous Texan Don Merdith said, “It ain’t over till the fat lady sings” no wait a minute he said, “Turn out the lights the parties over Texas is going to split” ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/92 "2013-10-17T00:21:19Z")
> [@Leoj](#): > > So you think the National Guard or state police or whoever is just going to stroll in to an Air Force or Navy base and commandeer those weapons? I guess you could go the pacifist route instead and hope to gin up sympathy in the rest of the U.S. when Texas is being cracked down on, but I’d tend to think a successful break away would need some good old fashioned violence. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/93 "2013-10-17T00:36:21Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > That’s a great argument! Unfortunately it’s an argument against an assertion nobody has made. I went back through the thread, and nobody has suggested any such thing about Texas. That’s the problem when you have [two threads going on simultaneously on the same subject.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16757574&postcount=5) And then there’s this post (#43) from this thread: > [@](#): > > Inside 6 months, Mexico will invade them, and teach them manners with the slack end of a rolpe. I will, of course, laugh my @ss off. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/94 "2013-10-17T00:39:31Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > To those who think Texas would just wither and die without the rest of the U.S., or be “owned” by Mexico in a few months/years… > > […the economy of Texas.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas#Defense) > > [And their defense industry appears…substantial.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas#Defense) > > This isn’t to justify partisan blather about secession. Just to throw some cold water of reality in the faces of certain people who have some caricature idea of Texas as desert and tumbleweeds punctuated by the occasional ranch and rodeo. > > Texas can feed itself, clothe itself, power itself, and defend itself quite well [without U.S. Federal assistance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas#Taxes). And without [incurring crippling deficits.](http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21572208-unexpected-surplus-points-pitfalls-texan-austerity-too-much-good-thing) > > The above argues that it can also govern itself pretty successfully. It’s interesting pointing out that, even if the US military stripped down of every bit of equipment and personnel every single base in Texas, Texas is uniquely suited to have a strong civilian militia similar to that of Switzerland. ---
**Author:** ![Snupzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@Snupzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snupzilla)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/95 "2013-10-17T01:40:58Z")
While I’m sure its very fun to feel better than someone based on where they live, can anyone in the “Let Texas Succeed” camp actually provide any evidence that a large segment of Texans actually want to succeed? I live in the state and I don’t know a single person that advocates succession as a serious option. While I’m sure pro-Texas independence people exist outside my middle class urban bubble, I think their actual number is grossly overestimated by northerners unfamiliar with the workings of the state. ---
**Author:** ![Leoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/58956e/32.png) [@Leoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leoj)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/96 "2013-10-17T01:51:26Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I guess you could go the pacifist route instead and hope to gin up sympathy in the rest of the U.S. when Texas is being cracked down on, but I’d tend to think a successful break away would need some good old fashioned violence. What the fuck are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/97 "2013-10-17T01:57:37Z")
> [@Snupzilla](#): > > While I’m sure its very fun to feel better than someone based on where they live, can anyone in the “Let Texas Succeed” camp actually provide any evidence that a large segment of Texans actually want to succeed? I live in the state and I don’t know a single person that advocates succession as a serious option. While I’m sure pro-Texas independence people exist outside my middle class urban bubble, I think their actual number is grossly overestimated by northerners unfamiliar with the workings of the state. Wikipedia actually has a [Texas Secession Movements page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession); there do seem to be quite a few people for it, although I’m not sure if they qualify as a “large segment” or not. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/98 "2013-10-17T01:58:25Z")
> [@Snupzilla](#): > > While I’m sure its very fun to feel better than someone based on where they live, can anyone in the “Let Texas Succeed” camp actually provide any evidence that a large segment of Texans actually want to succeed? I live in the state and I don’t know a single person that advocates succession as a serious option. While I’m sure pro-Texas independence people exist outside my middle class urban bubble, I think their actual number is grossly overestimated by northerners unfamiliar with the workings of the state. Are you from Texas? Of course, dirty liberal policies have kept Texas from succeeding for years. As for thinking I’m better than Texas, I’m perfectly happy to tell them “It’s not you, it’s me.” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/99 "2013-10-17T02:03:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Wikipedia actually has a [Texas Secession Movements page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession); there do seem to be quite a few people for it, although I’m not sure if they qualify as a “large segment” or not. Well, 125,000 signed the petition, but from what I recall we are talking about less than 10% of the population support actually seceding from the union (there is a higher percentage that believe that Texas should be able to secede, which is a different question). If you can find hard numbers though I’d be interested. ETA: Found [this](http://www.dallasnews.com/news/state/headlines/20121113-some-facts-and-fiction-for-texans-who-want-state-to-secede-from-u.s..ece): > [@](#): > > There hasn’t been any recent polling, but a 2009 Rasmussen Reports survey found that 31 percent of Texans say the state has a right to secede but just 18 percent of Texans would vote to secede from the U.S. if given a choice. Three-fourths of Texas citizens said they oppose secession. > > That 18 percent figure is identical to the percentage of Americans who say they favor allowing their state or region to secede from the nation, according to a 2008 Zogby poll. So Texas is no more secessionist than, say, Alaska. Or Rhode Island. So, in 2008 there were 18%. Even if that has doubled we aren’t talking about a majority. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264/100 "2013-10-17T02:05:05Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Well, before you go all crazy on that, ExTank, remember that Texas also has enormous expenses covered by the federal government. Border security, welfare and food stamps (a huge user) and other federal programs would suddenly be added to the Texas budget. The whole ‘low tax’ thing would go out the window. > > Plus, having a large defense industry isn’t the same as having a large defense infrastructure. Having Raytheon or General Dynamics won’t do a thing to defend against invasion or whatnot. :rolleyes: Riiiight. Because Texas can’t afford any of those missiles, planes, or helicopters being made. In Texas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-let-texas-secede/671264.md?page=6)