# Why not Lift the Embargo on Cuba? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589 "2003-08-12T05:35:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/21 "2003-08-12T23:21:27Z")
Not all Canadians can trade with Cuba with impunity: "A federal jury in Philadelphia last month found a Canadian businessman living in the US, James Sabzali, guilty of violating the US embargo by selling water purification materials to Cuba through a middleman. The Canadian government denounced as “objectionable and unacceptable” the conviction of Sabzali for sales he made in Canada that are entirely legal there. Sabzali is the first foreign national indicted for “trading with the enemy.” He and two American partners are appealing the verdict. If the verdict is upheld, they will face prison terms of four years or more. Any Canadian or European businessmen who had previous dealings in Cuba could be similarly prosecuted if they established residence in the US. The prosecution was carried out under the terms of the “Cuban Democracy Act,” a 1992 law signed by the elder George Bush that prohibits overseas subsidiaries of US corporations from trading with Cuba." [http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/Covert\_Actions/Bush\_Administration\_Split\_Over\_Blockade](http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/Covert_Actions/Bush_Administration_Split_Over_Blockade) ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/22 "2003-08-13T00:13:12Z")
We will definitely lift the US embargo on Cuba very soon. Is Fidel sick? …no? well, maybe not that soon. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/23 "2003-08-13T10:01:04Z")
> [@](#): > > that is simply Castrospeak From [the Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1009384,00.html) > [@](#): > > Saddled with a siege economy and a wartime political culture for more than 40 years, Cuba has achieved first world health and education standards in a third world country, its infant mortality and literacy rates now rivalling or outstripping those of the US, its class sizes a third smaller than in Britain - while next door, in the US-backed “democracy” of Haiti, half the population is unable to read and infant mortality is over 10 times higher. Cuba has developed biotechnology and pharmaceutical industries acknowledged by the US to be the most advanced in Latin America. Meanwhile, it has sent 50,000 doctors to work for free in 93 third world countries (currently there are 1,000 working in Venezuela’s slums) and given a free university education to 1,000 third world students a year. _Truly_ a [lesson](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,376090,00.html) to the West. > [@](#): > > I can say, hand on heart, that Cubans are amongst the happiest people I have come across Forgive me, in my remarks about the happiness I perceived whilst in Cuba I did not intend to paint Cuban life as some idyllic communal existence: Life is hard, many want away, and there are easily as many anti-Castro Cubans as pro-. (Similarly, calling Thailand a country with a “happy” people is of course not to ignore the desperate poverty and suffering in many of its cities.) But to paint Cuba as some Orwellian nightmare is also inaccurate. The average Cuban’s lot is in some ways worse, in some ways rather _better_ than the average Jamaican, Haitian or Mexican but we don’t hear of “40 years of Mexican misery, forcing millions into America”. I went to Cuba expecting a Soviet-style police state. I found a healthy, ferociously intelligent and politically clued-up island. The only way I might convince you that Cubans are not, in fact, bursting to start competing with each other to see who can afford the biggest television is for you to **go there**. But then again, this thread is _all about_ allowing one’s government to prevent one from doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Zorro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ad7895/32.png) [@Zorro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zorro)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/24 "2003-08-13T10:23:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\* > > And upon their return Uncle Castro promptly had four of them shot. > > Thanks a lot, President Bush!\_\_ :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: \*\* Did he? The last executions I heard about in Cuba were three terrorists who hijacked a passenger plane. The US made a big fuss about human rights, which would be fair enough if it were not for the fact that this way of dealing with terrorists is not very different to the US way. It was my understanding that Fidel is bigger on locking people up for dubious reasons than on shooting them. I reckoned that counted as a plus point for a Communist dictator. Not so much of the East-German style “disappearances”. Correct me if I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/25 "2003-08-13T12:09:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zorro \* > **Did he? The last executions I heard about in Cuba were three terrorists who hijacked a passenger plane. The US made a big fuss about human rights, which would be fair enough if it were not for the fact that this way of dealing with terrorists is not very different to the US way.** Not quite, it was a boat they tried to hijack. They were caught, tried, convicted, denied appeal, and executed in 9 days. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/26 "2003-08-13T12:14:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > **I went to Cuba expecting a Soviet-style police state. I found a healthy, ferociously intelligent and politically clued-up island. The only way I might convince you that Cubans are not, in fact, bursting to start competing with each other to see who can afford the biggest television is for you to go there.** Oh please, do you really think that Cubans are different from anyone else? Of course they want to have the best of everything, and that’s why you see doctors working as cab drivers in the tourist industry, because that’s where the dollars are, and in Cuba if you have dollars you can have anything. Consumerism is alive and well in Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/27 "2003-08-13T12:18:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Roger\_Mexico \* > \*\*Not all Canadians can trade with Cuba with impunity: > > "A federal jury in Philadelphia last month found a Canadian > businessman living in the US, James Sabzali, guilty of violating the > US embargo by selling water purification materials to Cuba through a > middleman. The Canadian government denounced as “objectionable and > unacceptable” the conviction of Sabzali for sales he made in Canada > that are entirely legal there.\*\* There’s certainly a lot more to this story than in the link you provided. Try [this link](http://www.canadiannetworkoncuba.ca/Documents/Sabzali.shtml) , from that article: > [@](#): > > Sabzali’s alleged crime was in the selling of water purification products to Cuban hospitals. The case gained so much attention because roughly half of the “offenses” were alleged to have occurred while he was living in his Ontario home, working as a private businessman. > > His business dealings with Cuba on behalf of a U.S. firm were in fact following the letter of Canadian law, which amended the Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act (FEMA) in 1996 to counter the far-reaching claws of the U.S. Helms-Burton Act. My reading of that seems to indicate that half of the offenses occurred while he was living in the US, and that he was dealing on behalf of a US firm, both prohibited under US law. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/28 "2003-08-13T12:35:34Z")
I think **BobLibDem** hit it on the head with “election politics” – who’s gonna blow their chances of election on an issue with so few supporters? It has long bothered me, as others have noted, that Cuban poverty is ascribed to the US embargo. Plenty of other countries can trade with Cuba. And don’t other countries make automobiles? Why does every news story seem to show ancient American cars on the road and the “genius” mechanics keeping them going? What about the European car industry? Or Japab’s? Or Russia’s, their economic paryner for all those years? Or Canada today? Something doesn’t add up. I heard on the radio today that Castro is 77 yoday. You can practically hear American businesses salivating about the inplications. How is it possible for Castro not to have provided for government after his death? Or has he done so, and American wishful thinking is simply ignoring it? You never hear about _that_ in the news. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/29 "2003-08-13T12:42:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CalMeacham \* > \*\*I heard on the radio today that Castro is 77 yoday. You can practically hear American businesses salivating about the inplications. How is it possible for Castro not to have provided for government after his death? Or has he done so, and American wishful thinking is simply ignoring it? You never hear about _that_ in the news. \*\* He has designated his brother Raul Castro as his successor, however he’s no spring chicken either at 72. In recent months Castro has been conducting a purge of government officials and replacing some of the aging ministers with younger, and one assumes more ideologically pure, or at least more loyal party members, so it seems that he is laying the groundwork for a government after his death. Most Cubans however are looking for changes after Castro’s death, whoever follows him have better be prepared to deliver. ---
**Author:** ![Zorro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ad7895/32.png) [@Zorro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zorro)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/30 "2003-08-13T13:52:42Z")
Someone has to start this, it’s only polite: _Happy birthday to you, Happy birthday to you, Happy birthday dear Fidel, Happy birthday to you!_ **Hip hip! Hooray! Hip hip! Hooray! Hip hip! Hooray!** _cough_ Right, that’s all, thanks everyone. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/31 "2003-08-13T14:14:24Z")
What? Don’t you know what happens to countries that trade with the USA? They get poorer and poorer. Just ask the anti-globalization crowd! ---
**Author:** ![Zorro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ad7895/32.png) [@Zorro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zorro)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/32 "2003-08-13T14:30:25Z")
Well it’s a bit of a difficult one. They’d have to enter the free market system with little baby steps, because just opening up all the doors would mean that a bunch of US companies would essentially buy Cuba for a song and a dance, and Cuba would be back where it was before the revolution: a US colony in all but name. And in third world countries, that sort of arrangement always makes a small elite ridiculously rich while most people see no benefits whatsoever. Just look at Venezuela. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/33 "2003-08-13T14:40:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zorro \* > \*\*Well it’s a bit of a difficult one. They’d have to enter the free market system with little baby steps, because just opening up all the doors would mean that a bunch of US companies would essentially buy Cuba for a song and a dance, and Cuba would be back where it was before the revolution: a US colony in all but name. And in third world countries, that sort of arrangement always makes a small elite ridiculously rich while most people see no benefits whatsoever. Just look at Venezuela. \*\* Zorro, I can’t find on online reference so don’t ask for a cite, but IIRC foreign ownership in Cuba before Castro was negligible for all industries except sugar, and in that industry it ran at less than 40%. Of course given the size of the Cuban economy that does not mean that foreign interests did not exert undue influence in Cuban economic affairs, however that situation did not change in 1959, the only thing that changed was who was exerting the influence. As for ridiculously rich small elites, you do realize that the situation in Cuba is exactly like that, don’t you? The Miramar district in Cuba looks like any ritzy neighborhood in the world, that’s where the communist elite lives. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/34 "2003-08-13T16:10:20Z")
Posted by **Incubus:** > [@](#): > > Blalron, I know this may sound a bit obtuse, but I think keeping the embargo will actually do some good for Cuba socially. The embargo, to an extent, preserves Cuba’s own culture- The United States has an almost borg-like tendency to assimilate its own culture into other countries. > > Cuba to me feels like a country virtually unaffected by a passage of time and world events. But Puerto Rico has been American territory ever since the Spanish-American War and it still has not been culturally Americanized. That is, not from what I can see – I’ve never been there. Perhaps some Puerto Ricans, or recent visitors, can correct me on this point? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/35 "2003-08-13T16:14:35Z")
Posted by **Roger\_Mexico:** > [@](#): > > The purpose of the embargo is mainly to protect the financial interests of the Cuban fascists in Miami, like the Bacardi family and the Fanjul brothers, sugar barons of the Everglades. The Fanjul brothers donate copiously to the political parties, one to the Dems and the other to the Repubs. We overthrew Allende for Pepsi-Cola and tried to overthrow Castro for rum. I don’t understand. How does the embargo protect the financial interests of the Bacardi and Fanjul families? I mean, they might have lost property when Castro came to power, but that was then, this is now. If the embargo ended, wouldn’t those families be especially well positioned to do profitable business in Cuba? Even with Castro still running the country? ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/36 "2003-08-13T16:45:34Z")
Well, a lot of posters had a lot of good points about this matter that I hadn’t thought about- a great way to fight ignorance (by giving tons of prespective on the matter). I originally believed the embargo was somehow preserving something good in Cuba, but I guess lifting the embargo would be a better idea if it could offer a better standard of living for Cubans (dunno how). ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/37 "2003-08-13T16:57:06Z")
I just heard a clip of a call from a Miami radio host impersonating Hugo Chavez and calling Castro on the phone. Castro falls for it and then the impersonator calls him a murderer and then Castro lets loose all sorts of profanity. It’s funny to hear a 77-year-old Head of State using that language. ---
**Author:** ![Isabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5a626/32.png) [@Isabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabelle)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/38 "2003-08-13T17:02:09Z")
Because we have taken a stand against an ideal…Communism is against the very laws of God…you do not sanctify it by tolerating it. The same can be said for any moral issue… ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/39 "2003-08-13T17:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrainGlutton \* > \*\*Posted by \*\*Roger\_Mexico:\*\*How does the embargo protect the financial interests of the Bacardi and Fanjul families? I mean, they might have lost property when Castro came to power, but that was then, this is now. If the embargo ended, wouldn’t those families be especially well positioned to do profitable business in Cuba? Even with Castro still running the country? \*\* If the embargo were to disappear, cheap (_really_ cheap) rum and cigars would immediately flood America. Why spend money on a bottle of Bacardi when you can get another, more authentically Cuban brand for half as much? UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589/40 "2003-08-13T17:18:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Isabelle \* > **Communism is against the very laws of God…** God must have really hated the early Christians then, because according to Acts they held all property in common. :rolleyes: The Marxism of the USSR and Cuba - overthrowing the current government by force and forcing the new system on everyone - is deplorable. But most Christian theologians throughout history have spoke of a ideal community of believiers that sounds a lot like Communism… UnuMondo [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-lift-the-embargo-on-cuba/194589.md?page=3)