# Why not true tribal sovereignty in the U.S.A.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 8, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173 "2014-03-08T05:02:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/1 "2014-03-08T05:02:59Z")
What’s the downside? From the eastern-most reservation to the overthrown islands of Hawaii, the U.S. owes the very earth of its existence to the indigenous peoples. Life is demonstrably Not Great on the res, so what’s the great downfall in leaving the descendants of the indigenous peoples to totally govern the spit of land they have left? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/2 "2014-03-08T06:43:28Z")
You don’t see any possible downside with having a bunch of independent nations in the middle of the United States? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/3 "2014-03-08T07:50:45Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > What’s the downside? From the eastern-most reservation to the overthrown islands of Hawaii, the U.S. owes the very earth of its existence to the indigenous peoples. Life is demonstrably Not Great on the res, so what’s the great downfall in leaving the descendants of the indigenous peoples to totally govern the spit of land they have left? I doubt they’d want it. The poorer reservations presumably are net beneficiaries of federal tax dollars, while the richer ones often depend on casinos or exporting natural resources, both which might suffer if separated from the US by a national boundary. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/4 "2014-03-08T14:20:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You don’t see any possible downside with having a bunch of independent nations in the middle of the United States? Europe gets by. ---
**Author:** ![sevenwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/5 "2014-03-08T14:33:02Z")
This is going to sound incredibly crass, but… We won. They lost. Get over it. (Actually, I have ancestors on both sides of this particular issue, although I have a considerably higher percentage of Caucasian ancestry than Indigenous American.) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/6 "2014-03-08T14:36:17Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > What’s the downside? From the eastern-most reservation to the overthrown islands of Hawaii, the U.S. owes the very earth of its existence to the indigenous peoples. Life is demonstrably Not Great on the res, so what’s the great downfall in leaving the descendants of the indigenous peoples to totally govern the spit of land they have left? For the native Americans, it means being cut of from $2.9 billion in federal subsidies every year, in addition to Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and other payments. [As the National Congress for American Indians puts it:](http://www.ncai.org/resources/ncai_publications/honor-the-promises-the-tribal-nations-in-the-federal-budget) > [@](#): > > For many tribes, a majority of tribal governmental services is financed by federal sources. Tribes lack the tax base and lack parity in tax authority to raise revenue to deliver services. If federal funding is reduced sharply for state and local governments, they may choose between increasing their own taxes and spending for basic services or allowing their services and programs to take the financial hit. On the other hand, many tribes have limited ability to raise substantial new revenue, especially not rapidly enough to cover the reduction in services from the across the board reductions of the FY 2013 sequestration. So, making all 310 tribes sovereign nations means condemning most of them to even worse levels of grinding poverty. For the rest of the nation, it means 310 new countries interwoven throughout the U.S. The potential problems are legion: companies setting up factories on a cash-strapped reservation to avoid pollution regulations, pouring out pollutants that drift into the U.S; criminal organizations setting up on a reservation to avoid prosecution; having to set up customs and border patrol around each reservation… ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/7 "2014-03-08T18:28:28Z")
> [@sevenwood](#): > > This is going to sound incredibly crass, but… > > We won. They lost. Get over it. > > (Actually, I have ancestors on both sides of this particular issue, although I have a considerably higher percentage of Caucasian ancestry than Indigenous American.) [Spike](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0551346/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): I just can’t take all this mamby-pamby boo-hooing about the bloody Indians. [Willow](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004989/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Uh, the preferred term is… [Spike](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0551346/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That’s what conquering nations do. It’s what Caesar did, and he’s not goin’ around saying, “I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it.” The history of the world is not people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/8 "2014-03-08T18:36:34Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > What’s the downside? From the eastern-most reservation to the overthrown islands of Hawaii, the U.S. owes the very earth of its existence to the indigenous peoples. Life is demonstrably Not Great on the res, so what’s the great downfall in leaving the descendants of the indigenous peoples to totally govern the spit of land they have left? The downside for the government would be less power. That’s why it doesn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/9 "2014-03-08T18:41:40Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Europe gets by. Which continent has had more wars, Europe or North America? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/10 "2014-03-08T18:41:46Z")
> [@sevenwood](#): > > This is going to sound incredibly crass, but… > > We won. They lost. Get over it. > > (Actually, I have ancestors on both sides of this particular issue, although I have a considerably higher percentage of Caucasian ancestry than Indigenous American.) Yes, it sounds “crass” as well as racist, and saying “this is going to sound” before you say it doesn’t make it less so. That said it’s a completely unworkable solution that I can’t see any number of people who legitimately can call themselves Indian supporting this. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/11 "2014-03-08T19:49:09Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > For the native Americans, it means being cut of from $2.9 billion in federal subsidies every year, in addition to Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and other payments. [As the National Congress for American Indians puts it:](http://www.ncai.org/resources/ncai_publications/honor-the-promises-the-tribal-nations-in-the-federal-budget) > > So, making all 310 tribes sovereign nations means condemning most of them to even worse levels of grinding poverty. > > For the rest of the nation, it means 310 new countries interwoven throughout the U.S. The potential problems are legion: companies setting up factories on a cash-strapped reservation to avoid pollution regulations, pouring out pollutants that drift into the U.S; criminal organizations setting up on a reservation to avoid prosecution; having to set up customs and border patrol around each reservation… Good point about corruption and opportunism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/12 "2014-03-08T19:59:08Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Europe gets by. Europe is a continent, not a country-totally different situation. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/13 "2014-03-08T20:10:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Europe is a continent, not a country-totally different situation. Well, if the tribes got full sovereignty, we wouldn’t be a single country anymore, either. But the real reason is what was said earlier. It’s not economically feasible for these tribes to be independent countries. Most of them are small (while the largest reservation, the Navajo reservation is about the size of Latvia, most are much smaller), most aren’t very populated, and there’s no real economic base. As mentioned, most are only able to stay solvent because of federal subsidy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/14 "2014-03-08T20:24:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, if the tribes got full sovereignty, we wouldn’t be a single country anymore, either. And when was Europe ever a single country that got divided up into individual nations by the people indigenous to those areas? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/15 "2014-03-08T20:33:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And when was Europe ever a single country that got divided up into individual nations by the people indigenous to those areas? 800, large portions of it. But I think you might be focusing on an irrelevant point? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/16 "2014-03-08T20:38:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > 800, large portions of it. But I think you might be focusing on an irrelevant point? In post #4 the OP used Europe as a direct example of his position. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/17 "2014-03-08T20:42:17Z")
He did, but you didn’t really rebut him. What he was saying was that the fact that you have a lot of little countries all in one area doesn’t mean that the place will be a failure. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/18 "2014-03-08T21:49:19Z")
It seems to me this sounds like an American version of the Apartheid-era South African government’s “Bantustan” scheme. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-true-tribal-sovereignty-in-the-u-s-a/683173/19 "2014-03-08T21:56:03Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > What’s the downside? From the eastern-most reservation to the overthrown islands of Hawaii, the U.S. owes the very earth of its existence to the indigenous peoples. Life is demonstrably Not Great on the res, so what’s the great downfall in leaving the descendants of the indigenous peoples to totally govern the spit of land they have left? It worked for South Africa! eta: Ninja’d by some punk kid! 😛