# why not two minimum wages - one for students and teens, one for working adults? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-two-minimum-wages-one-for-students-and-teens-one-for-working-adults/293836 "2005-03-10T14:57:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-two-minimum-wages-one-for-students-and-teens-one-for-working-adults/293836/141 "2005-03-24T21:46:55Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I did feel that I had to keep focusing on it because you are attacking me regarding it Sweetie - I’m not attacking you. YOU keep bringing it up over and over and over, and I keep correcting you. You won’t let it go. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-two-minimum-wages-one-for-students-and-teens-one-for-working-adults/293836/142 "2005-03-24T22:16:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > False. You want to change the status quo, not me. My position is that we should leave the MW right where it is. Eventually we will grow out of it, we don’t need to get rid of it. Hogwash. I’m in favor of having a minimum wage. We _do_ have a minimum wage. That is the status quo. I have no idea what you’re talking about. > [@](#): > > I know you’re just being silly here, but I’ll respond anyway: Nonsense. I was quite serious. > [@](#): > > It’s clear that I’m not whining and you are. You were complaining about how tough it is for some people to succeed in our society and bemoaning how unfair it is. I’m the one who has a positive outlook about how great our system is. Again, we HAVE a minimum wage. How can I be “bemoaning” not having something, when we DO have it? That makes no sense. YOU are the one bemoaning the fact that low-income workers aren’t “motivated” by piss-poor wages to get high-tech jobs. > [@](#): > > I’ll respond to this quickly: I have not said I want 100% small business solvency. I haven’t hinted that that would be a reasonable goal. I haven’t said anything remotely like it. I don’t know why you are repeatedly trying to get that phrase into my mouth. You didn’t answer the question. I asked you, then, what you DID mean. You only told us what you _didn’t_ mean. > [@](#): > > You should spend less time attacking me for such things. That’s highly ironic. I have wasted an enormous amount of time responding to your demands that I keep explaining over and over and over what I said. God, how I wish I could spend less time on it. But you just won’t quit with the strawmen. > [@](#): > > Here is my statement that you disagreed with again: \*\*If the supply of workers dropped because of low wages, then the employers demand for them would result in higher wages. The market takes care of such things. \*\* Look, I already refuted your statement. I’m not going to refute everything you say 3 or 4 times over. Go back and read my response. Enough is enough. > [@](#): > > I knew no such thing. Perhaps you should be more clear when you type. It was very clear. The fault is yours. > [@](#): > > Our conversation has touched on subjects larger than simply MW workers. Again, you aren’t following the argument. When we’re talking about _minimum-wage_ jobs, and how many workers are available to do them, we aren’t talking about high-tech jobs, because those _aren’t_ minimum-wage jobs. What we’ve “touched on” is irrelevant. I don’t know what’s so hard to understand about that. > [@](#): > > You stated “ **In the real world, there are always more people in need of work than there are jobs, so businesses do not necessarily have to raise wages, because there won’t be a shortage of workers. The market does NOT take care of that.** ” > > This statement was false. It is still false. My tech worker example blows it out of the water. No it doesn’t. If there are X unskilled minimum-wage jobs available, and Y unskilled workers available to _do_ those jobs, what does Z, the number of highly-trained tech workers have to do with it? I didn’t say there will always be more people in need of work than jobs in EVERY CATEGORY. There you go again - reading too much into things. > [@](#): > > I’ve got a good point and you know it. It’s silly to point out every time a person makes a bald assertion. Everybody does it in their posts. And everybody who does it gets called on it. Like you did. > [@](#): > > No, you are not. You asked “Who says the MW law lifts all workers out of poverty?” I gave you an answer. It was a rhetorical question. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-two-minimum-wages-one-for-students-and-teens-one-for-working-adults/293836/143 "2005-03-24T22:19:35Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Sweetie - I’m not attacking you. YOU keep bringing it up over and over and over, and I keep correcting you. You won’t let it go. You are the one who has called me a liar and accused me of a logical fallacy which I was not guilty of. I have only kept bringing it up in defense of these untrue allegations you have made. It was only recently in post #137 that you finally realized your mistake. Still, I note that you haven’t apologized or retracted. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-two-minimum-wages-one-for-students-and-teens-one-for-working-adults/293836/144 "2005-03-24T22:21:55Z")
> [@aurelian](#): > > Since I fear I’ve already hijacked this thread with the ‘free market’ questions, I started a new one [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5981941#post5981941). You should’ve titled it “Pandora’s Box”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-two-minimum-wages-one-for-students-and-teens-one-for-working-adults/293836/145 "2005-03-24T22:23:43Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Hogwash. I’m in favor of having a minimum wage. We _do_ have a minimum wage. That is the status quo. I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’m fine with just leaving the MW where it is. You are the one who wants to raise it. That is a change of the status quo. > [@](#): > > No it doesn’t. If there are X unskilled minimum-wage jobs available, and Y unskilled workers available to _do_ those jobs, what does Z, the number of highly-trained tech workers have to do with it? I didn’t say there will always be more people in need of work than jobs in EVERY CATEGORY. There you go again - reading too much into things. You made a statement was not only demonstrably false, it was laughable. I pointed this out. Now your doing backflips to try and justify it after the fact in some way to make it clear. Why don’t you just rephrase it to something that makes sense? Instead you insist on blaming me when you word something poorly. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-two-minimum-wages-one-for-students-and-teens-one-for-working-adults/293836/146 "2005-03-24T22:24:04Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It was only recently in post #137 that you finally realized your mistake. Still, I note that you haven’t apologized or retracted. YOUR mistake. I’m through with your childish games. Goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-two-minimum-wages-one-for-students-and-teens-one-for-working-adults/293836/147 "2005-03-24T22:31:40Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’m fine with just leaving the MW where it is. You are the one who wants to raise it. That is a change of the status quo. O.K., I’ll correct one more error of yours before I stop responding to you. I only said the MW should keep up with inflation, which is what it does, more or less. (As proof, compare the MW 40, 30, 20, and 10 years ago with today’s, and note that it increases over time). YOU advocate freezing it, which is NOT the status quo. And in fact, you said the _only_ reason you don’t advocate abolishing it altogether is that you don’t think it could be accomplished politically. So it’s quite disingenous of you to claim that you _advocate_ keeping the status quo, since, if you had your druthers, there wouldn’t be a MW at all. (I know you’re going to deny saying this, but it’s right there on the page for all to see.) So knock yourself out with your strawmen; I’m through with you. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-two-minimum-wages-one-for-students-and-teens-one-for-working-adults/293836/148 "2005-03-25T13:47:07Z")
Good to see the old “I’m taking my ball and going home.” argument put to use. I’ll respond to your last point. The minimum wage has not been changed in seven years, since 1997. Leaving the minimum wage as it is is indeed the status quo. Raising it would be a change. Leaving things as they are would continue the status quo. You disagree with me. You think raising the MW would be the status quo. However, it’s worth noting that I’m not calling you a liar or accusing your argument of being a logical fallacy. We simply disagree. You on the other hand, don’t seem capable of recognizing this. You again question my motives, calling me disingenuous, and accuse me of creating strawmen. It is actually possible for someone to have an opinion that is different from yours and not be a liar. You would do yourself a service if you tried to wrap your mind around that concept and stopped with the lashing out at those who disagree with you. Bye. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-two-minimum-wages-one-for-students-and-teens-one-for-working-adults/293836/149 "2005-03-25T13:50:17Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > if you had your druthers, there wouldn’t be a MW at all. (I know you’re going to deny saying this, but it’s right there on the page for all to see.) Oh, and just to be throrough I’ll respond to this. Yes, I have stated that in a perfect world I think we could do without a MW at all. However, the world is not perfect and the political reality is that this is never going to happen. If the republicans suggested this they would get massacred in the next election. So, my argument has been consistent: We should keep the MW where it is. It’s not dishonest of me to make this argument, it’s just realistic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-two-minimum-wages-one-for-students-and-teens-one-for-working-adults/293836.md?page=7)