why not two minimum wages - one for students and teens, one for working adults?

Great Debates
21

If you don’t understand the connection between buying products made in the USA and a society that is not willing to pay for higher wages then there is no point in any further discussion.

And you confuse finding a job that pays more with simplicity. Why would you come to that conclusion? In order to get paid more, your labor needs to be worth more, which usually involves learning a new skill. Stumbling out of 12 years of tax payer funded education thinking you deserve a job is a guaranteed plan of failure.

22

The question is if “12 years of tax payer funded education” doesn’t make someone more than marginally employable, whatintheheck is it supposed to be good for?

There are larger issues here that are not going to be addressed by a simple mandated wage increase. Minimum wage keeps people from begging on the streets, but there should be some more long-term program to get functional adults above minimum wage.

Stranger

23

We have something very similar in the UK:

Seems to work ok. I haven’t seen any stories about employers only wanting under 22s because they’re cheaper.

http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/nmw/

24

Among developed nations, Americans work the longest hours. Some people might see this as ‘hardest working’. But American productivity is woeful compared to many other countries - long hours don’t necessarily equate with getting the best out of the workforce.

25

I certainly have. Not that they could get away with making it official policy, but I’ve heard people confide that they’d never employ someone over that age for certain jobs.

26

OK. You’re bringing nitpicking to a whole new level, but I’ll re-word: You want to “legislate away poverty for workers”.

It’s obvious to any reasonable person that is what I meant, since we are talking about minimum wages which only affect workers, not the unemployed.

Now that I’ve added the “for workers” clarifier for you our statements are entirely equal in meaning. I’m genuinely confused as to why you would deny this.

27

Strawman.

28

Would you be in favor of my proposal, then? Government passed the Debaser bill (Ted Kennedy would probably be a co-sponsor) and everyone gets paid $50,000! I mean, if it’s that easy then why not?

Those fancy crosswalks may or may not be a waste of our tax dollars, IMO. I don’t know enough about them to have an educated opinion. However, whatever they cost, they are provided to bennefit the taxpayers who are walking on the street. People are working. The money they make is taxed. These taxes go to services that they benefit from (like fancy crosswalks). This is what the government is for.

Now, you think the government has business taking money from those that work and giving it to those who don’t, or those who just make less. There are lots of problems with this. It basically boils down to: A.) It isn’t moral, fair, or right. B.) It doesn’t work, and ultimately results in more poverty and a cycle of dependance.

BTW, if all those other countries are so much better than the US due to their liberal redistribution programs, then why do you still live here?

29

It’s good as a launching point for an education in the field that you want to work in. Some disciplines can be learned in vocational schools and a person can take full value of this in their HS education.

Neither of my parents went to college. My dad worked his ass off learning new jobs to make more money. They never had 2 nickels to rub together. Long before I finished H/S my parents asked me (forced me) to think about what schooling I intended to pursue. They offered what financial help they could but it was obvious I would need to save money to prepare for it. That’s what I did with my “minimum wage” job. My mother encouraged me (bent my arm) to take stuff like typing in summer school because she saw the value of the (free) skill before computers were a reality. This is what the parents of my friends did. They helped their kids plan their lives. None of us were wealthy.

The United States currently has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world despite immigrants pouring in. If someone can’t plan a little and find a job that pays the bills then they are not putting in the pre-planning necessary to succeed.

30

I’m actually not familiar with this argument.

The most common argument against a minimum wage IME is that it artificially inflates the value of labor and hurts small business owners. As a result, small businesses go out of business or hire less workers and ultimately workers are worse off than before.

Incorrect.

At any given company, there is only so much funds to spend on workers. If you raise the minimum wage, you are forcing employers to either lose money or shrink thier workforce to make those funds stretch to fill the void.

31

Damn good point.

This is what I was thinking of when I asked sven why he chooses to live here.

It’s precisely the fact that we don’t have high taxes, socialist big government, and massive welfare payments that keeps our economy stoked and burning hot. You start taxing people at the rates you would need to in order to try and end poverty, and you’ll end up with the high inflation and high unemployment that plague Europe.

32

Not all schools (or even, perhaps, most) offer vo-tech programs. And unless you are going the college prep route, I’d argue that a lot of the material presented is just done in rote, without any real conception of applicable value. Not that everything learned in school should be dedicated to performing a particular set of skills but that someone can graduate from high school with no skills whatsoever is ridiculous and lends creedence to the notion that a high school diploma is worthless. (Public) high school seems to have become either a) a staging ground for college or b) a purgatory for kids who aren’t going to go to college and will work in the diminishing amount of blue collar jobs available.

Most “white collar” jobs nominally require a college education, even though there is little that is entailed in these jobs that actually taps into subjects covered in a college curriculum, further degrading the value of a bachelor’s degree. I don’t discourage anyone from continuing education past high school, but that it should be mandatory to do so in order to earn more than minimum wage indicates that high school isn’t doing a very good job of preparing children to become functional adults (assuming that you consider that to be a priority in secondary education.)

At any rate, just upping the minimum wage to keep up with inflation is keeping the low end employment (just) viable, but doesn’t address larger issues.

Stranger

Stranger

33

Incorrect.

McStore can only hire so many people- the number necessary to run the store. If they hire more than that, they’ll have people sitting around, not earning their wages. Sure, McStore can open a new store… but again, only a certain number of new stores before all of their stores have difficulty bringing in enough business to stay viable.

If you drop minimum wage, McStore will use that as an opportunity to hire more employees, true- but only to the amount necessary to keep the store running. They won’t hire beyond that number just because labor is suddenly a lot cheaper- and in the meantime, all of their employees are living on even LESS money than before.

Now, where do you think all the money that the company’s now saving will be going? Not to the employees, that’s for sure.

34

Debaser: *It’s obvious to any reasonable person that is what I meant, since we are talking about minimum wages which only affect workers, not the unemployed. *

Sorry for the confusion, but when you said “legislate away poverty”, I thought you meant “legislate away all poverty”.

It’s very unlikely that we could ever do that. But it’s pretty clear that legislation can sharply reduce, if not entirely eliminate, certain categories and degrees of poverty. (Consider the way that the introduction of Social Security vastly reduced poverty among the US elderly, for example, or the way that government maternal support payments and other social services in some Scandinavian countries have nearly eliminated child poverty.)

Realistically speaking, I doubt that we could totally eliminate poverty even among full-time low-wage workers, but it seems probable that a minimum wage increase would at least considerably reduce it.

Debaser: You start taxing people at the rates you would need to in order to try and end poverty, and you’ll end up with the high inflation and high unemployment that plague Europe.

Well, in the first place, the proposed increase of $1.90 in the federal MW could hardly hit the economy hard enough to produce “Euro-tax” levels. The last MW increase back in the '90s didn’t, after all.

In the second place, many people are surprised to learn that several European countries actually have lower unemployment rates than the US, including Austria, Ireland, the Netherlands, and even some of those socialist Scandinavian countries like Denmark and Norway! (OECD unemployment rate figures.)

Moreover, in recent years there hasn’t been that much difference in inflation rates between the US and many European countries. For example, in the linked list with 2002 figures, Luxembourg, Germany, Norway, and Switzerland all had lower inflation rates than the US, and those of Austria, France, and Belgium were only 0.1–0.2 percentage points higher.

When we consider that many of those European countries have higher life expectancies, lower poverty and infant mortality rates, higher average levels of literacy and education, more job security, better health care, a stronger currency, and so forth, it’s not as obvious as you suggest that the American system automatically produces better quality of life. The days when we could scare people away from an economic policy just by invoking the dread boogeyman of Europe are pretty much over, IMO.

By the way, pervert provided some good links on the economic debate about whether raising the MW actually does hurt small businesses. There doesn’t seem to be any conclusive evidence that it does.

35

Magiver: * If someone can’t plan a little and find a job that pays the bills then they are not putting in the pre-planning necessary to succeed.*

Do you have a cite for this claim that the problem of the “working poor”, or not being able to pay the bills even when you’re willing and able to work, is solely an individual problem? It seems to me that there are pretty profound systemic causes for it in our economy too. Some of these include the rapidly growing costs of healthcare, the increased proportion of temporary and part-time “McJobs” in the labor market, and the lagging of the minimum wage behind inflation.

An article last year in USA Today suggested that the percentage of the workforce consisting of the working poor is growing:

It’s [estimated (pdf)](ww.aecf.org/initiatives/jobsinitiative/ workingpoor/working_hard_new.pdf) that as many as one out of four working families fall into the “working poor” category. Do we really have that much of our workforce that simply isn’t “putting in the pre-planning necessary to succeed”? Can a problem that big really be solely due to a failure of individual responsibility?

Even if it is, if our economy is so dependent on so many people being so shortsighted and irresponsible, isn’t that a serious problem? If a significant percentage of those people cleaned up their acts and “put in the pre-planning necessary to succeed”, where could they all find high-paying jobs, and who would do the poverty-wage jobs that they abandoned? We seem to be talking about a major chunk of the American workforce here.

36

The are several obvious problems here, first it is illegal and unconstitutional to discriminate wages between groups of people. Another problem is the obvious fact the everyone would hire the people that are paid the least, therefore the lower wage really is the actual minimum wage. The idea of a minimum wage is that NO ONE can make less than that amount and if companies want to hire someone they need to pay that amount.

37

Ok, I am so f***ing sick of hearing this. If I could get a work visa without huge difficulty, I would be gone in a second. There are places which would fit much better with my values and have the side benefit of legally acknowledging my partner. But the fact is that it’s VERY difficult to move to the EU from the US.

38

OK, so now we have a different goal, not alleviating poverty, but instilling a work ethic or somehing like that. It still does not explain why employers should have to foot the bill for this social need. A better solution would still be to finance this program through tax and welfare methods that were somehow tied to work. It could either be as a wage subsidy paid by employers or a income supplement paid to workers on earned income. A real problem I have with MW is that it puts the burden on business owners and there is no reason to suspect that they are most capable, on an ability-to-pay basis, to do so. And indirectly paying are those that are not hired at $8/hr when they would be hired at $6/hr.

39

[QUOTE=Kimstu]
Debaser: *It’s obvious to any reasonable person that is what I meant, since we are talking about minimum wages which only affect workers, not the unemployed. *

Sorry for the confusion, but when you said “legislate away poverty”, I thought you meant “legislate away all poverty”.

It’s very unlikely that we could ever do that. But it’s pretty clear that legislation can sharply reduce, if not entirely eliminate, certain categories and degrees of poverty. (Consider the way that the introduction of Social Security vastly reduced poverty among the US elderly, for example, or the way that government maternal support payments and other social services in some Scandinavian countries have nearly eliminated child poverty.)
Debaser: You start taxing people at the rates you would need to in order to try and end poverty, and you’ll end up with the high inflation and high unemployment that plague Europe.

Well, in the first place, the proposed increase of $1.90 in the federal MW could hardly hit the economy hard enough to produce “Euro-tax” levels. The last MW increase back in the '90s didn’t, after all.

In the second place, many people are surprised to learn that several European countries actually have lower unemployment rates than the US, including Austria, Ireland, the Netherlands, and even some of those socialist Scandinavian countries like Denmark and Norway! (OECD unemployment rate figures.)

Moreover, in recent years there hasn’t been that much difference in inflation rates between the US and many European countries. For example, in the linked list with 2002 figures, Luxembourg, Germany, Norway, and Switzerland all had lower inflation rates than the US, and those of Austria, France, and Belgium were only 0.1–0.2 percentage points higher.

When we consider that many of those European countries have higher life expectancies, lower poverty and infant mortality rates, higher average levels of literacy and education, more job security, better health care, a stronger currency, and so forth, it’s not as obvious as you suggest that the American system automatically produces better quality of life. The days when we could scare people away from an economic policy just by invoking the dread boogeyman of Europe are pretty much over, IMO.

Well, the evidence I pointed to seemed more to look at employment in the broad sense. That is they looked at whether unemployment went up when the minimum wages did. The evidence suggested there seems to be that the relation ship is sketchy.

However,

This does not seem to be the case. When you look at poverty rates as minimum wages change, there is very little correlation. There is, however, a large corelation between poverty and unemployment.

40

My appologies for that horrendous post. Please consider that this is what I meant.

Well, the evidence I pointed to seemed more to look at employment in the broad sense. That is they looked at whether unemployment went up when the minimum wages did. The evidence suggested there seems to be that the relation ship is sketchy.

However,

This does not seem to be the case. When you look at poverty rates as minimum wages change, there is very little correlation. There is, however, a large corelation between poverty and unemployment.