# why not universal healthcare? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2007, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238 "2007-01-24T14:35:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/141 "2007-01-31T00:58:57Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Not according to any veteran I’ve ever asked. [/QUOTE] And yet, data has a way of not agreeing with your anecdotes. Imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/142 "2007-01-31T00:59:22Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] The VA hospitals and system are the best in the country. [/QUOTE] Sorry, I will take my local hospital over the base hospital any day of the week. The VA is great if you have no job, insurance and chronic disease / illness. The folks who work there are some of the best. The resources that they are given, however, are far inferior to what I can get in the private market. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/143 "2007-01-31T01:00:12Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] The VA where my anesthesia for surgery would be handled by a nurse instead of a doctor? Where waiting lists are legion? Where drugs are not the latest or the greatest? I could use the VA, and choose not to. My options through my employer is far superior and worth every extra cent. Now, the VA database IS great! Of course, it helps when the docs can’t be sued for malpractice so that there is no dis-incentive to providing all of the information about care, including mistakes. If the same database existed at a regular hospital it would be subpeoned daily by the plaintiff’s bar fishing for malpractice lawuit opportunities. [/QUOTE] Cites requested. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/144 "2007-01-31T01:00:26Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] And yet, data has a way of not agreeing with your anecdotes. Imagine. [/QUOTE] Cite your source for the VA giving superior care to private hospitals, por favor. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/145 "2007-01-31T01:04:30Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Cites requested. [/QUOTE] For the anesthesia comment, I was going off of a debate from the practice at Walter Wonderful (Walter Reed) a few years ago. The VA system gives this: [http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:Uf2fai2hKMAJ:www.anesthesia.med.va.gov/anesthesia/docs/Example\_Local\_ModSed\_Policy.doc+nurse+anesthesia+VA+hospital&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9](http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:Uf2fai2hKMAJ:www.anesthesia.med.va.gov/anesthesia/docs/Example_Local_ModSed_Policy.doc+nurse+anesthesia+VA+hospital&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9) \*c. Level 3, deep sedation/analgesia and Level 4, anesthesia, will be administered only by an anesthesiologist holding appropriate clinical privileges, or a certified registered nurse anesthetist (CRNA) working in conjunction with an appropriately credentialed anesthesiologist. Note: Facilities without anesthesiologists will need to modify this section to reflect the local practice, such as CRNA in conjunction with a physician. You need to be aware of the State license held by your CRNA to be sure appropriate supervision is being offered. \* ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/146 "2007-01-31T01:15:12Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] Cite your source for the VA giving superior care to private hospitals, por favor. [/QUOTE] Okey doke. > [@](#): > > The VA runs the largest integrated health-care system in the country, with more than 1,400 hospitals, clinics and nursing homes employing 14,800 doctors and 61,000 nurses. And by a number of measures, this government-managed health-care program–socialized medicine on a small scale–is beating the marketplace. For the sixth year in a row, VA hospitals last year scored higher than private facilities on the University of Michigan’s American Customer Satisfaction Index, based on patient surveys on the quality of care received. The VA scored 83 out of 100; private institutions, 71. From [here](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1376238-1,00.html). > [@](#): > > According to a Rand Corp. study, the VA system provides two-thirds of the care recommended by such standards bodies as the Agency for Healthcare Research & Quality. Far from perfect, granted – but the nation’s private-sector hospitals provide only 50%. And while studies show that 3% to 8% of the nation’s prescriptions are filled erroneously, the VA’s prescription accuracy rate is greater than 99.997%, a level most hospitals only dream about. That’s largely because the VA has by far the most advanced computerized medical-records system in the U.S. And for the past six years the VA has outranked private-sector hospitals on patient satisfaction in an annual consumer survey conducted by the National Quality Research Center at the University of Michigan. This keeps happening despite the fact that the VA spends an average of $5,000 per patient, vs. the national average of $6,300. From [here](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_29/b3993061.htm). > [@](#): > > Pushed by large employers who are eager to know what they are buying when they purchase health care for their employees, an outfit called the National Committee for Quality Assurance today ranks health-care plans on 17 different performance measures. These include how well the plans manage high blood pressure or how precisely they adhere to standard protocols of evidence-based medicine such as prescribing beta blockers for patients recovering from a heart attack. Winning NCQA’s seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. And who do you suppose this year’s winner is: Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Massachusetts General? Nope. In every single category, the VHA system outperforms the highest rated non-VHA hospitals. From [here](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_01/005508.php). The VA also does less ill-advised medicating of the elderly (warning, [pdf](http://www.amcp.org/data/jmcp/research_362-370.pdf)). ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/147 "2007-01-31T01:19:20Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Cites requested. [/QUOTE] For the drug quip (again, personal knowledge now backed up with some quick Google-fu): \*veterans do not have access to several of the drugs available under the Medicare program through this protection—such as the anti-cancer drug Anastrozole and the anti-seizure drug Oxcarbazepine. \* [http://www.house.gov/reichert/press06/1.12.07.shtml](http://www.house.gov/reichert/press06/1.12.07.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/148 "2007-01-31T01:42:47Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Okey doke. From [here](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1376238-1,00.html). From [here](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_29/b3993061.htm). From [here](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_01/005508.php). The VA also does less ill-advised medicating of the elderly (warning, [pdf](http://www.amcp.org/data/jmcp/research_362-370.pdf)). [/QUOTE] Thanks - great links, BTW. The Washington Monthly piece, though, included this little interesting bit for the overall debate: > [@](#): > > Longman’s story explains how the VA pulled this off. In short, because the VA has lifetime relationships with its customers, it has an incentive to invest in the costly (in the short term) computerized case management and evidence-based medicine systems that keep people healthy over a lifetime and keep costs down over the long run; whereas in private sector health care, customers bounce around as they change jobs, so any hospital or HMO that invests heavily in the information-based preventative medicine systems that everyone (including the White House) says are needed winds up enriching its competitors. This is the arguement for a decent electronic medical record system that is portable. The risks being, again, lawsuits and privacy. The VA has shown the value of owning the customer and having all of the data. This value is also shown in UHC systems of other nations. Improvement for the US could come from a better database, but privacy and legal issues would need to be resolved. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/149 "2007-01-31T02:37:39Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] Not entirely true. You are making a statement for all, when in truth we all analyze what we personally receive. [/quote] Right. We. On the whole. Collectively. We are in fact discussing American health care financing versus that of other countries. > [@](#): > > I personally do NOT pay that much more than in other nations (my employer pays the majority). > I get superior care than what I received in England while a student and worker. > Based on my demographics (top percentile eduction, upper middle class, safe city, etc.) my estimated life expectancy is well in line with my the nations of my ancestry. Well, then, there is no problem with the health care system in America. **Algher** is doing okay. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/150 "2007-01-31T03:28:57Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Right. We. On the whole. Collectively. We are in fact discussing American health care financing versus that of other countries.Well, then, there is no problem with the health care system in America. **Algher** is doing okay. [/QUOTE] Now now now, I did not say that. I said that HC for ME was fine. I said that HC in America will not change as long as the majority of people are, for the most part, happy with their care vs. their perception of government run care in America. ---
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/151 "2007-02-01T03:10:54Z")
[QUOTE=Snag] What benefit is there in requiring most people to get their health insurance through their workplace? Why should it be an employer’s responsibility in the first place? How does this help business? Some places will compete for labor by offering better benefits but wouldn’t they rather not need to bother at all? Why should an employer have to go search for and buy insurance for their employees? What sense is there in having a business plunk down a bunch of money for it and then have someone in the human resources department have to spend all kinds of time managing it? How is this more efficient than universal health care? [QUOTE=catsix] I never said ‘through their workplace’. [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] Heck, I don’t know why you bothered addressing this question in the first place; you ran away from the point altogether and simply changed the focus of what was asked. I have to say, looking at most of your posts on this thread it seems you’re mistakenly posting to Great Debates, as opposed to Great Soundbites. I don’t see much in the way of you trying making a case, just dropping bullet points. Let’s try one more time: How is the current system better for business, to be required to provide health care than for most of the workers in America, than a system where they do not need to spend the time and money doing so? [QUOTE=Snag] It’s short sighted to think that the govt. only takes money and never creates wealth in return for the taxes paid. Any govt. would be in shambles (Soviet Russia) if it doesn’t produce wealth for the nation. [QUOTE=catsix] Governments don’t create wealth, they redistribute it. And I’m not in for any more redistribution than is absolutely necessary. I don’t like Marxism. [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] Are you telling me that the tax investment made by the US government for education at all levels, for our roads, bridges, water systems, the interstate highway system, rural electrification did not contribute to creating wealth? That the Internet, created mostly through gov’t research hasn’t generated a dime of profit in America? Would you rather we hadn’t spent the tax money we have on courts that up hold contracts, regulate the stock market and trade so that business has a fair, stable platform to work from? The government run and funded NASA spin-offs like: \*Miniaturized computer components and better software in the 60’s. \*MRI and CAT Scan technology. \*Weather and communication satellites, rockets for commercial satellites. \*The all-weather tire, the athletic shoe, freeze-dried coffee & foods, etc. etc. These STILL return wealth on investments made 40 years ago once they were applied in the private sector. Likewise it’s quite possible that having a full service, full coverage payment system that looks out for everyone’ health care could wind up making a lot of money for us with that tax investment as well. You are claiming that there is no value on our investment in our military, police forces? Ever hear of Haliburton, Lockhead, GE? Think any money was made there, any job creation? You couldn’t do “your job” to survive without all of this infrastructure provided by the government. Including FEMA, unemployment insurance, disability and other services that might stop you cold without them. I doubt you’d turn them down if you needed them, then claiming them your right as a taxpayer and a citizen. If you do “your job” so well, the logic goes you should be able to become fabulously wealthy getting in on the ground floor in places like Mexico or Iraq where you don’t have a pesky government involved in redistributing so much of your wealth. Look at how well those countries do without their governments imposed upon their 'free markets’ and their every man for himself lifestyle. And I’ve gotta admit their taxes are low. Yeah, part of what gov’t does is to redistribute wealth. And it’s redistributed a hell of a lot more of it into your pockets and economic environment than you’re willing to admit to yourself. [QUOTE=Snag] Because the whole point of government is to have representative body that serves us and provides the infrustructure for our society, including the environment in which business operates. It’s the most logical body to provide for that need, in part because citizens are allowed to manage it via our democratic system. [QUOTE=catsix] Some people believe this ‘from each according to his means to each according to his needs.’ I don’t. I don’t think it’s the government’s job to provide me with the things I need to survive. I think that’s **my job**. [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] Hey Catsix, I don’t appreciate the insulting tone that suggests I’m supposed to be a commie pinko. I believe in capitalism. In fact, all the socialist nations you might have referred to on this thread are based more on the capitalist model than a communist one. They have markets very similar to ours that we trade with. Their companies sell stock. Neither capitalist nor socialist economies are interested in having a central government controlling everything. Why don’t conservatives and libertarians realize that the old 1970’s relic of a straw man has mostly fallen apart in the information age? Even China, with its authoritarian government, has basically become a capitalist economy and is more so every day. Centralized economies don’t exist on a mass scale much anymore, that’s why Marxism is basically an irrelevant model of the world that you’ve got your head wrapped around. No one is talking about the gov’t running the health care system, simply finding a way of paying for it. I haven’t seen any suggestions put forth by its advocates that we remove free enterprise from those that provide health care. [QUOTE=Snag] Taxes are an investment in that infrustructure. Compared to most industrialized nations our tax rates are low. Can you name me one other country that gets a better return on their taxes than the US? [QUOTE=catsix] I don’t live in another country. Given the opportunity, I wouldn’t move to one. I don’t like the way that other countries tax the hell out of those who work hard in order to carry the weight of those who don’t. [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] Oh yeah, those who don’t want to work is at an epidemic proportion. What is it, about 2% of a population? Most of those not working wish they could. You want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. In fact, the weight is better distributed with your tax dollars far more towards the wealthy and the middle class than towards the poor. [QUOTE=Snag] Do you actually think the US doesn’t have the resources to put together a better than average single payer health system than most other countries, especially since we have the benefit of examining what’s worked best among two dozen other nations that use such a system? [QUOTE=catsix] I have absolutely no incentive whatsoever to want a single-payer (which is bullshit, because it’s the tax payers who shoulder teh burden) system that increases my taxes and then forces me to buy additional insurance on top of it in order to get the same service I already have. No incentive at all. Zip, zero, zilch. [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] Uh, the whole point of single payer or some kind of UHC is to provide better care than what you now get without needing to pay any insurance at all. Take away the outrageous overhead of private insurers and the pharmaceuticals which tend to spend more on marketing research than on drug research and the over cost of health care will come down. We will bring prices down when someone walks in with 300 million orders for health care and asks for a volume discount on medicines. Insure everyone so that everyone can get preventive care so that we aren’t liable to cover catastrophic care, sometimes with your higher tax dollars and again overall price costs will come down. [QUOTE=Snag] Tell your government they are charging too much and if they don’t fix it and those responsible will likely be out of a job next election day. You have a say how govt. is run, you don’t with private industry. [QUOTE=catsix] This is pretty idealistic, actually, given that the same gripes consistently come up no matter who’s in office, and that some of the most griped about politicians have made 20 and 30 year careers out of sitting in Congress. The apathetic American public doesn’t vote, so why would the government give a damn about making them happy? [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] Well, you hit the nail on the head in that our government would certainly be more responsive if more people did vote. We certainly saw quite a change of the power structure in Washington a couple of months ago as we did in 1994. They pay attention when they are called on the carpet for non-performance. The wheels may turn slowly in govt. but the populous of democratic nations everywhere have a reasonable degree of control over their lives. Some say that the socialist model with its strong labor voice gives the commoner more of a voice than here in America. I’m not sure if that argument is valid, but it has some strong talking points in some cases. We do fine here, nor would I want to live elsewhere. [QUOTE=Snag] And based on the low overhead costs of programs like Medicare, the VA & Social Security, all under 5% as compared to private insurance, I think the onus is on you to prove it wouldn’t be cheaper. [QUOTE=catsix] Having seen the care that people I know get under Medicare and the VA, I don’t want anything even resembling that. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=catsix] It’s so good that one friend of mine has to travel a couple hundred miles to see the only doctor the VA will let him see for one of his chronic health problems. No thanks [/QUOTE] [/quote] The VA has been re-tooling itself for the last 10 years, and despite a stingy congress has nevertheless made big improvements in many regions. Admittedly it’s not yet so all across the US but I know some vets in California who are very impressed with some of their modernized clinics. And I know many older people who are thankful for Medicare. Many of them receive as good or better care than their children on private plans again despite a stingy congress. Of course, YMMV but it’s better than many other places in the world. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/152 "2007-02-01T05:04:06Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] If you look in the footnotes you’ll see the data they’re using is from the late 90s. [/QUOTE] Actually, while the reports they cited were from 1999, the data that they are based on is even older than that. It’s from [1997](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10226630&dopt=Abstract). Oh, and Sam, the [F](http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/fsh97d00)[r](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Kenneth_Green)[a](http://www.yourmedia.ca/library_articles/041028_gutstein_fraser.html)[s](http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=117f43c5-e13c-4d7a-bbb6-824b34da55d9)[e](http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/95-2/issue13/fraser8.html)[r](http://www.ciparx.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=40) Institute? Are you serious? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/153 "2007-03-05T19:25:27Z")
OK - breaking this sucker out again. One of my earlier posts regarding why not UHC was that I have no desire to be under a system that reminded me of my time dealing with the VA system. Another poster did an excellent job of showing how well the VA does based on a legit survey. However - now we have the fun back once again at Walter Wonderful… > [@](#): > > ‘It Is Just Not Walter Reed’ > Soldiers Share Troubling Stories Of Military Health Care Across U.S. > > By Anne Hull and Dana Priest > Washington Post Staff Writers > Monday, March 5, 2007; A01 > > Ray Oliva went into the spare bedroom in his home in Kelseyville, Calif., to wrestle with his feelings. He didn’t know a single soldier at Walter Reed, but he felt he knew them all. He worried about the wounded who were entering the world of military health care, which he knew all too well. His own VA hospital in Livermore was a mess. The gown he wore was torn. The wheelchairs were old and broken. > > “It is just not Walter Reed,” Oliva slowly tapped out on his keyboard at 4:23 in the afternoon on Friday. “The VA hospitals are not good either except for the staff who work so hard. It brings tears to my eyes when I see my brothers and sisters having to deal with these conditions. I am 70 years old, some say older than dirt but when I am with my brothers and sisters we become one and are made whole again.” [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/04/AR2007030401394\_pf.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/04/AR2007030401394_pf.html) Now - I will state that this is a nice tear-jerker article, as opposed to data regarding quality. However, I will also state that as long as news like this is out there, the American Likely Voter will vote AGAINST being forced to join this type of system. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/154 "2007-03-05T19:55:37Z")
At any rate, it appears the American people, rightly or wrongly, **want** universal health care. See [this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=410692) ---
**Author:** ![indierock82](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f14d63/32.png) [@indierock82](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/indierock82)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/155 "2007-03-07T12:10:30Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] 5) Most Americans have health insurance and are generally happy with the choices and care they are allowed under the current system. There is a real fear that their level of service will tank if the whole system is overhauled just to capture a minority of people without health insurance. [/QUOTE] So, what, do the minority at least get a kiss before they get royally fucked? :dubious: That very statement (and I believe it is quite valid) is what epitomizes what’s wrong with America (please don’t take that personally, all you americans!!) Where is the sentiment for the collective good? Your health care system works quite well for the majority of the population, but you’re letting a substatntial amount of people fall through the cracks. I can’t imagine the choices that some americans have to make, i.e do I spend more money than I can afford on some health insurance to insure that my family is safe and in turn jeopardize the ability to put food on the table or pay for rent? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/156 "2007-03-07T13:39:58Z")
[QUOTE=indierock82] So, what, do the minority at least get a kiss before they get royally fucked? :dubious: That very statement (and I believe it is quite valid) is what epitomizes what’s wrong with America (please don’t take that personally, all you americans!!) Where is the sentiment for the collective good? Your health care system works quite well for the majority of the population, but you’re letting a substatntial amount of people fall through the cracks. I can’t imagine the choices that some americans have to make, i.e do I spend more money than I can afford on some health insurance to insure that my family is safe and in turn jeopardize the ability to put food on the table or pay for rent? [/QUOTE] I’ve got pretty good healthcare where I work. Even those of us doing OK remember when things were better. But choices have been reduced to only **one** : Blue Cross/Blue Shield PPO. Years ago, we actually had a good HMO. But it couldn’t survive in the Texas economy–about the time Bush became Governor. Co-payments have increased hugely, as well. A co-worker took early retirement because she & her husband had some health problems. Even with our “pretty good” insurance–she felt it was time to go home. Home to Canada. Because of the health care system. And most of us think it’s ridiculous that some people depend on the ER for medical care. It would be more efficient if they could go elsewhere for checkups & routine problems. And more humane. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/157 "2007-03-08T01:18:02Z")
Some say that the Walter Reed scandal going on right now is a prime example of “why not universal health care.” Is this an apt comparison, or apples and oranges? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/158 "2007-03-08T01:35:39Z")
[QUOTE=Leaper] Some say that the Walter Reed scandal going on right now is a prime example of “why not universal health care.” Is this an apt comparison, or apples and oranges? [/QUOTE] First of all, universal health care does not imply all or any hospitals are run by the government. Second, private hospitals often have problems also. Third, this demonstrates that incompetent administrations, without oversight, can screw anything up. One thing that is relevant, I think, is that if we have universal healthcare we need to be ready to pay enough for decent healthcare. I can imagine a future with universal healthcare in which a conservative government cuts funding until the system is a mess, and then claims the idea is inherently flawed because it is a mess. ---
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/159 "2007-03-08T01:56:04Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] First of all, universal health care does not imply all or any hospitals are run by the government. Second, private hospitals often have problems also. Third, this demonstrates that incompetent administrations, without oversight, can screw anything up. One thing that is relevant, I think, is that if we have universal healthcare we need to be ready to pay enough for decent healthcare. I can imagine a future with universal healthcare in which a conservative government cuts funding until the system is a mess, and then claims the idea is inherently flawed because it is a mess. [/QUOTE] Furthermore, in the countries where they have government sponsored health care, what movements are actively trying to turn their systems towards a privatized system instead? For whatever complaints they might have I don’t believe that I’ve heard of any of these countries having groups sponsoring such a change to the point where it’s getting any news play. My understanding, correct me if I’m wrong on this, is that it’s not even being considered much less tried by any major political party in Canada or Great Britain. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238/160 "2007-03-08T20:26:23Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] First of all, universal health care does not imply all or any hospitals are run by the government. Second, private hospitals often have problems also. Third, this demonstrates that incompetent administrations, without oversight, can screw anything up. One thing that is relevant, I think, is that if we have universal healthcare we need to be ready to pay enough for decent healthcare. I can imagine a future with universal healthcare in which a conservative government cuts funding until the system is a mess, and then claims the idea is inherently flawed because it is a mess. [/QUOTE] Universal Healthcare certainly DOES imply government health care to the average American. This is especially true when people regularly state that America should have UHC just like the nations of Europe, who have their hospitals run by the government. Now, it is not HAVE to equal that, but it certainly does IMPLY that. Americans can look at the VA system to see what government run hospitals would be like. Americans can look at Medicare, Medicaid and Tricare to see what a government run single payer system would be like. Perhaps a decent UHC system in America could be different, but there is nothing wrong with looking at existing American Government run systems and extrapolating that to the nation as a whole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-universal-healthcare/389238.md?page=9)