why not universal healthcare?

OK. Serious question gets a serious answer. Truck driver. There are companies in my state that will train you for free. in a couple of years you can bring down $50K but you won’t have time to spend it because you will be driving your ass off. But if you’re clever you buy a duplex with your money and rent out one side. You pay the duplex off in 5 years. Now you have a free place to live which gives you a buffer for finding a better job.

As was mentioned before, construction is another alternative. tradesman wages start low but you’re still in the $25,000/year range. You can bypass that by starting your own roofing business. Or lawn care business. start your own roofing business for the cost of a used truck a ladder and a hammer.

Man, you must be young and healthy. Try being an old fart, but not old enough for Medicare. COBRA, for me, costs $335 per person (so, for my family, that’s X3) and only lasts 18 months. We can get private insurance for about $450 per month, but high end, it ain’t. It’s got a $5000 deductible (each) with with 80% coverage beyond that. Basically, it kicks in if you get hit by a truck. No doctor visits, no prescriptions and all pre-existing conditions exempt – FOREVER. High end insurance in my age group is more like $900+ per month.

I’m not sure about universal coverage, but I’ll vote for whoever has the most rational plan to fix this.

The key to any of these is deciding what trade you want to work in, accepting that the first job will be low-paying, and sticking with it and working hard enough to work your way up to a higher income.

Another brief search found six non-Army entry-level jobs under Transportation. None of them are for truck drivers. Removing the entry-level restriction, the truck driving jobs require applicants to have a Class A commercial license. I was suspicious of one because the description sounded like a school more than an employer:

Of course one is likely to be able to find a $30,000/year job (not necessarily in construction or truck driving) if one lives in a metropolitan area. But it’s more expensive to live there as well. At least insurance would probably be provided to some extent. But what happens after a layoff? Out of insurance again. It makes much more sense to me for people to have health coverage that pays for preventative care so that people can stop major problems at the gate. A healthy person is more likely than an unhealthy one to be a contributing member of society and the economy. It’s win-win. More productivity from healthy people becoming employed, and lower medical costs by reducing the number of expensive problems.

COBRA is no bargain as you’ve found out. An HMO will cost you over $10K a year and it doesn’t giver you better coverage for catastrophic than what you’ve got. I would not expect the government to reduce this cost. You have to pay for insurance. Universal Health Care is not “free”.

The difficulty with private insurance at your age is the ability to even get it. Been there, didn’t get that… You may not like your deductible but once you set this money aside the savings is substantial over what an HMO would cost. So you should consider voting for yourself because you made a good choice.

I think there’s a certain disconnect when people hear UHC mentioned as if it were free. It’s everything but free and once it is put in place we lose the choice of how we spend our money.

my bolding

Several people in this thread from countries with some version of UHC have already posted otherwise, so why do you persist in repeating these tired speaking points.

Jim

You’re seriously wrong here and I’m not saying that to be mean. I work in the transportation field and I have friends who drive. When I was laid off I looked into driving a truck as part of plan “C”. Luckily I didn’t have to go beyond plan “A” but You’re wrong about driving. I have friends who were laid off and actually made more money driving. $60K is possible but you are REALLY driving your ass off. You can also make some serious money (so I’m told) on river barges but again, it’s not my cup of tea. I would rather drive a truck than sit on a boat for 28 days straight.

The second thing I would STRONGLY disagree with you on are costs in a metropolitan area. I found starter houses quite cheap in my city, It’s easy to purchase a modest home and pay it off in 5-10 years. I did this while working my way through school (it was actually cheaper than renting).

The jobs I described are all around me for 100 miles. But when you say metropolitan you have to look at the size of a city. When you get to LAX or SAN size then you may indeed have a disconnect in the standard of living compared to a smaller mid-west town. MOVE… Seriously. MOVE. As far away from LAX as you can.

Off topic:

I’m very familiar with the trucking industry. I have never heard of a reputable carrier - actually, I’ve never heard of a disreputable one, either - that would hire someone to drive out of high school. Ever. That would be absolute murder on their insurance premiums.

Most carriers I know simply won’t hire a driver that young.

If the government takes your money than you’ve lost control of how it’s spent. Giving you choices is not the same.

You know, I can’t address that. Never asked the question of my vendors. I’ve seen some pretty young drivers but I don’t know. You might have a point. I know I’ve dealt with some 19 year olds. It may relate to the level of certification. If you skip using a driving school then the schooling is dependent on the company hiring. Their insurance will be based on review of the trucking company.

The problem with the health care debate is that we spend too much time on the emotional side of the argument, and not enough discussing the economics of it.

Take, for instance, supply and demand. A universal benefit carries a moral hazard. In the market, price controls the relationship between supply and demand. It fluctuates to keep the two in equilibrium. But what happens when you take away the cost of something? What is there to regulate demand? And without price increases, how do you signal the need to increase supply?

In countries with socialized medicine, people don’t get all the health care they want either. Because we simply cannot afford it. As a society, we are not wealthy enough that everyone can get all the health care they want. So it’s going to be rationed somehow. How is it rationed in socialized medicine? By restricting supply. That’s why you get waiting lists. And why you start to see public pressure building for the government to ‘do something’ about people with poor habits. And why doctors in the NHS get to play truly ugly cames aimed at valuing someone else’s life so they can decide who lives and who dies. Given a 6 month waiting list for a heart stent, do you give it to the 40 year old non-smoker? Or the 65 year old smoker? But what if the 65 year old smoker is more important? Or more politically connected? How do you make the choice without market transactions?

In the market, price controls demand. This does several beneficial things - first, it puts the cost burden directly on the party that uses the service, which makes them less likely to want the really expensive treatments or not run to the ER when they have the sniffles. Second, it ensures that the rich pay more into the health care system than the poor. This is important, because it drives research that eventually trickles down to everyone, and it acts as an incentive for doctors to excel so they can be the ones offering the gold-plated treatment.

In socialized health care systems, you tend to see less incentivism from within the health care community. There seems to be a lot more mediocrity over time. Part of that might be the very existence of the U.S. health care system - many, if not all countries with socialized health care experience a ‘brain drain’ to as their best doctors leave the country and go where the money and status is - in the U.S.

Quality of care also suffers. For example, consider public dentistry in Britain. Everyone may get some kind of care, but try getting cosmetic work. For that matter, try getting service. More and more people in Britain are opting to go to private dentists because there are shortages of public dentists and the treatment typically isn’t as good.

Here in Canada, we have a private dental system - and it works great. There are dentists everywhere, and the cost is very reasonable. I can get in to see a dentist with an hour’s notice in an emergency. Routine appointments are usually booked days in advance, not months. The quality is high.

Our eye care system is private except for an annual eye checkup. And what’s vision care like in Canada? Excellent. I got LASIK surgery done last year for less than $2000. You can get eyeglasses at Wal-Mart for cheap. The cost and quality of contact lenses has been improving dramatically over the years.

Eye surgery, however, is in the public healthcare system. My mother is almost blind. She’s needed various surgeries in both eyes to get her vision back. She’s been going through this ordeal for years, because each time she needs a surgery she gets put on a waiting list for six months. She is 70 years old, can’t see, and she has to go to another city for her eye work, because there is no one qualified in a city of 80,000 people where she lives. The public health care system isn’t working so well for her.

Ten things people believe about the Canadian health care system - but probably shouldn’t.

On the other hand, there is also a problem with private health insurance: information asymmettry. In short, you know how healthy you are, but your health care provider doesn’t. You have an incentive to over-state your health. Therefore, the insurer has to price insurance accordingly. This tends to discourage healthy people from seeking insurance since it’s no longer as good a value for them. That in turn increases the ratio of poor risks to healthy people.

The health care industry deals with this in many ways, mostly by using statistical aggregation and random selection. Worker-provided insurance, for example. If you cover everyone in the country, odds are that the average medical risk is pretty close to the average, and insurance can be priced accordingly. But even with various market adaptations, there is still a market failure here to some degree.

Also, it seems clear today that society is increasingly more demanding that no one be bankrupted by sudden health issues, and that poor people don’t go without treatment at all.

Given all this, my preference is for univeral catastrophic health care coverage with ‘catastrophic’ defined in relation to income. i.e. ‘catastrophic’ might be any treatment over $20,000 for someone making $50,000 per year, but $1 million for someone making $500,000 per year. In other words, sudden medical emergencies or chronic conditions can not destroy you financially other than in the short term (we can argue over what the catastrophic level should actually be).

The vast bulk of the medical system remains privately run. People would buy health insurance on the open market for covering the gap. The insurance would be modestly priced because the insurance company is protected from having to pay out massive claims. But this area still contains the vast bulk of medical care. If you need additional assistance for the very poorest, you can kick in tax credits or even some subsidies for health insurance. The middle class can fend for themselves. They can afford private insurance. If they don’t get it, too bad. They’ll be out $2K if they break a leg skiing, and will just have to work their asses off to pay it back.

I’m astounded that nobody has challenged this statement. MOST Americans? I really know very few that are happy with the current system in the U.S.

Bully for you. I’m in Montana and I pay $400 just for ME, not counting the rest of the family. And that’s for a $5,000 deductible ($10,000 for the family, so if only one person gets sick in a year, their deductible is $10K). Interestingly, I looked into getting a better deductible, and the premium increase was almost the same as the deductible decrease. I presume you’re young and healthy? I’m a 48-year-old male, and my family of three pays over $10,000 per year in health insurance.

Interesting. I wanted to learn to drive a semi so I’d be able to move my cattle around and perhaps make a few extra bucks on the side. Every truck driving school I contacted wanted $10,000 or more for the training. I was told that starting wages were $50K to $60K, but you supply your own gas.

Hogwash. Around here, for example, K-12 teachers don’t hit $30K until they have a bachelor’s degree and four years on the job.

I have no idea of the relevant laws in Montana, but I took a peek at what’s available through the non-profit organization I work for. Y’all sure don’t have the range of choices that we have in MD! Still, I assumed your “family of 3” was yourself and a wife the same age as you with 1 child, and that nobody smoked. I found an HSA plan with a 5k family deductible and an out of pocket max of 2K above that for under $600/month. True, you’d have to pay for the small stuff, like routine Dr. visits, yourself, up to that 5K, but since this is an HSA qualified plan, you could set up a savings account to cover those with pre tax dollars, and the nice thing about that is that the money you contribute to the savings account accumulates over time, with interest, and if you never use it, you get it back at retirement. Maybe you’re not looking in the right place. I’d be glad to refer you to someone if you want.

And FTR, I’m 39, and in decent health, but nothing special.

You know, even though I suspect that you and I do not agree 100% on this issue, we do agree on a lot of things and I very much appreciate your forthright and common sense posts about health insurance. Still, this is a common canard that is just not universally true. It is possible for the individual to get into a national group to get volume discounts. That’s what I do each and every day. While plans are underwritten, it is NOT true that “any hint of a past problem will result in uninsurability”. Major stuff? Yes. Minor stuff? (High cholesterol, high blood pressure, hypothyroidism, overweight, smoker, the list goes on) Nope, coverage is still available. And FTR, small business groups are generally MORE expensive for similar coverage than individual plans. Look at COBRA rates and you’ll get an idea of what the employer is actually spending.

The problem with this is that demand for health care is inelastic. In other words, I will pay as much as I possibly can for heart surgery, because no matter what other circumstances exist being alive is better than being dead. With inelastic demand there is nothing to control price except for ability to pay. The end result is that the rich get good medical care and the poor get shitty care, and the cost of health care goes through the roof.

The effectiveness of socialized medicine can not be fairly compared to the U.S. system. How much better would Canada’s or the UK’s health care system be if you doubled their budget? I don’t have the exact numbers in front of me, but that’s what you would need to do in order to have those countries spend nearly as much as the U.S. does on health care. Even with that deficiency many socialized health care systems are consistently rated higher than the U.S. system.

I guess I’ll never understand this issue.

$3000 deductible costs me $64 a month.

Age makes a huge difference, Cyberhwk. How old are you?

Yep - it’s me, wife, and one child–all nonsmokers. My options have become limited of late. I’m with a group policy now because they accept anyone. I’m not sure how long it will be before I can go back to general shopping, as I had cancer three years ago. However, my rates didn’t increase due to the cancer. Everyone in the area that I’ve spoken to has seen a 100% increase in the last five years.

I do use an HSA, and a Montana State plan as well for expenses above the HSA limit. You can use them with any plan, and I don’t know why anyone would do anything different.

There’s a new Montana tax credit for small businesses to cover insurance benefits. Hopefully, we’ll be able to use that this year to pay for part of it, too.

The whole situation makes me unhappy, though. It takes a ridiculous amount of effort to come up with the most reasonable policy possible and to set up the special accounts and credits, and the net result is still too big a percentage of the average person’s income.

Like “It’s my money, mine mine mine mine,” and “The market cures all!”

The economics are simple. We spend more money and we die sooner.

All I said was that the trucking jobs I found in that area required one to already have a Class A CDL; except for that one place that looked like a driving school.

If I lived in my house and made my current salary, I could very well pay it off in five years. The problem is finding a job that pays my current salary in that area. One reason housing is cheaper in many areas is the dearth of good-paying jobs. I’d be quite happy to live at home and make 2/3 of my salary; but the jobs arent’t there.

I was born in L.A., and Southern California costs are what I know except for Northern Washington. I’m not disputing that housing is cheaper elsewhere. I’m not disputing that people can find jobs where the population is low. But major metropolitan areas do have more jobs available. And what would happen if a million people (about 10% of the greater L.A. area) moved to a smaller midwest town? Are there a million jobs there?

Consider Bellingham, WA. It has a population of about 72,000 people. Compared to L.A. or San Diego or Seattle, it’s a ‘small town’. But compared to American cities overall, I think it’s probably about average. In 2003 the median income was about $32,000/year. 20% of the population were living below the poverty line. Why don’t people just get a truck driving job (B’ham is on a major route to Canada and there’s a lot of trucking going through), buy a house, and improve their situations? Because the jobs aren’t there. And Whatcom County is the fastest-growing county in Washington (I assume because larger cities are becoming more expensive). My house has doubled in value in the three years I’ve owned it. The value has almost quadrupled since my friend (from whom I bought it) purchased it in 2001. The higher demand for housing that is cheaper than Seattle has driven prices up. I don’t know where people are getting the money to buy houses there, since I have not seen many jobs into which one can just get off the street. Entry-level positions usually pay between $8 and $10 per hour, and many are part time.

But let me try to bring this hijack back on-topic. As has been noted by several posters, it’s difficult for people to just go out and buy health coverage. The only way most Americans can afford coverage is by being employed by a business that subsidises the premiums. If one cannot find such a job, one has no coverage. If one does not have a job, it’s virtually impossible to buy private coverage. This is why national health coverage is important. It would reduce the operating expenses of businesses, which would put more money into the pockets of businesses, which would allow them to hire more employees who would take their money and buy products that require more products to be made, which makes more money for the people who make the products, who must hire more people to produce those products, who go out and buy more products… whew Anyway, that’s the logic the current administration uses to justify tax cuts. But unlike tax cuts, national coverage would help the employees as well as businesses.

I assume that if I fall off a roof and break my leg, that a hospital is required to fix it regardless of my ability to pay. But they’re still going to try to get their thousands of dollars. I’m guessing there might be collection agencies involved. And what if an unemployed person had no assets? A lot of heartburn, and the hospital still doesn’t get their blood out of a turnip. It would be much simpler and more efficient if the medical costs were paid by the government through the taxes we’re already paying. How much medical coverage could be bought for the price of an unnecessary war? It’s about priorities.

But anyway, let’s say that emergency care is a given. What about preventative care? A sick person might be cured by the timely administration of an antibiotic. But if he cannot afford to visit a doctor he might not get the treatment until it advances to pneumonia. And pneumonia would probably be much more expensive to treat. So the cost to the taxpayers who pay the uninsured’s bill will be greater. Which is cheaper? Performing preventative maintenance on one’s car, or not performing maintenance until the car dies, and then going out and buying a new one?

I don’t have any numbers, but I believe that millions or billions of dollars are lost every year through lost productivity due to illness. If people are healthy, they’re likely to be more productive. It is in the national interest and the interest of the economy to keep people healthy.

No, more like “Given what we know about economics and human behaviour, what will the effect be of policy X?”

Instead of rationally discussing that, we spend too much time talking about the plight of poor people, how expensive insurance is, etc. Important issues, but it really doesn’t matter how bad the current situation is if your policy prescription makes it worse. And the only way to know whether it will make it worse or not is to actually analyze the problem economically.

Too often government programs get enacted simply because the public demands that the government ‘do something’ about a problem. We never stop to consider that perhaps the goverment is incapable of doing certain things without causing many more problems.

The economics are decidedly NOT simple. Health care is one of the most difficult economic problems there is.