# Why not use embedded computer chips to lower corruption and crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261 "2009-11-28T19:04:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261/61 "2009-11-30T16:20:22Z")
Why not? Because it would put you 90% of the way to a totalitarian state, that’s why not. You may be happy with your government right now, but give them the power to monitor every thing you do and you’ll regret it sooner or later. It’ll also not stop crime in any meaningful way (you can still pay people in cocaine), while putting the majority of law-abiding citizens under complete surveillance. And please don’t say “I’ve got nothing to hide” - you might not **now** , but I seriously doubt even that. I haven’t read the thread yet, so if the point has already been made, consider this another vote against the idea. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261/62 "2009-11-30T16:47:29Z")
As an expert in computer forensics and fraud investigation (according to my business card at least) for one of the largest professional services firms in the world, I think I am qualified to answer the OPs question. First of all, he has a slight case of the “justs”. As in “why don’t they just do this and that.” The simple answer, civil liberty concerns aside, it’s not all that feasible to implant 300 million people with chips. Then you need to collect all the data from those chips. Finally you need to sort through it to find instances of fraud and corruption. And what about foreign visitors who don’t have chips or people who are allergic to them? Also, the privacy concerns are a bit overblown. There is no such thing as privacy. All your emails and instant messages reside on servers somewhere. You credit card purchases and bank transactions all reside in a database somewhere. As does any Metrocard, EZPass, SmartPass (or whatever your local equivalent) and the security badge to your office. Your phone can be tracked by its GPS device or by the cell towers (although not as accurately). CCTV cameras record your movements in public spaces. Not to mention a lot of people just freely broadcast their entire lives on Facebook, MySpace and YouTube. Anyone with enough authority and resources can piece together a pretty accurate portrait of your week if they wanted to. The biggest reason is convenience. Sometimes you just want to conduct a legitimate business transaction without the need of some sort of scanner and connectivity to a network or satellite. Although convenience may end up becoming a reason to get one. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261/63 "2009-11-30T17:17:28Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Also, the privacy concerns are a bit overblown. There is no such thing as privacy. All your emails and instant messages reside on servers somewhere. You credit card purchases and bank transactions all reside in a database somewhere. As does any Metrocard, EZPass, SmartPass (or whatever your local equivalent) and the security badge to your office. Your phone can be tracked by its GPS device or by the cell towers (although not as accurately). CCTV cameras record your movements in public spaces. Not to mention a lot of people just freely broadcast their entire lives on Facebook, MySpace and YouTube. Anyone with enough authority and resources can piece together a pretty accurate portrait of your week if they wanted to. “Whatever is not forbidden is mandatory; whatever is not mandatory is forbidden”? One person’s decision to do something like broadcast their movements on Facebook is no reason to make it compulsary for everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261/64 "2009-11-30T21:45:31Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > “Whatever is not forbidden is mandatory; whatever is not mandatory is forbidden”? > > One person’s decision to do something like broadcast their movements on Facebook is no reason to make it compulsary for everyone else. You are missing the point. The point is simply that people make a big deal about their perceived “privacy” without realizing how much information about them is already out there and more or less readily available. Here is the problem with having all this information readily available and it has little to do with neo-facist totalitarian states. The issue is that based on what to you might seem like innocuous behavior might actually raise a red flag in some database search engine at the government, law enforcement agencies, corporations or banks. This systems might then determine you have a high probability of being a criminal threat, uninsurable, a high financial risk or unemployable. I for one would not want to live in a world where I might not be able to find a job because some computer determined a statistical correlation between how much laundry detergant I buy and whether I will be a high performer at work. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261/65 "2009-11-30T21:50:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You are missing the point. The point is simply that people make a big deal about their perceived “privacy” without realizing how much information about them is already out there and more or less readily available. > > Here is the problem with having all this information readily available and it has little to do with neo-facist totalitarian states. The issue is that based on what to you might seem like innocuous behavior might actually raise a red flag in some database search engine at the government, law enforcement agencies, corporations or banks. This systems might then determine you have a high probability of being a criminal threat, uninsurable, a high financial risk or unemployable. I for one would not want to live in a world where I might not be able to find a job because some computer determined a statistical correlation between how much laundry detergant I buy and whether I will be a high performer at work. That really is it, isn’t it? I’ve tried to make this point less eloquently to people on many occasions. When people get up in arms about ‘fascism, fascism’, I try to explain to them how they are ruled more by systems analysis than they are by a cult of personality fascist dictator. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261/66 "2009-11-30T23:12:10Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That really is it, isn’t it? I’ve tried to make this point less eloquently to people on many occasions. When people get up in arms about ‘fascism, fascism’, I try to explain to them how they are ruled more by systems analysis than they are by a cult of personality fascist dictator. That’s really it. What is a more realistic threat to your personal freedom? Jack Bauer busting into your house and torturing you with a lamp cord and his lame-ass Palm Treo smartphone? Or Chloe Obrien and her data mining software assessing you as potential enemy of the state because your interests and behaviors fit a certain profile? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261/67 "2009-11-30T23:16:00Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s really it. > > What is a more realistic threat to your personal freedom? Jack Bauer busting into your house and torturing you with a lamp cord and his lame-ass Palm Treo smartphone? Or Chloe Obrien and her data mining software assessing you as potential enemy of the state because your interests and behaviors fit a certain profile? I blame Rand. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261/68 "2009-12-01T10:02:26Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > It would be impossible to secure the digital money system as a whole well enough to justify the loss of privacy. All it would take are a few compromised chip-readers (the things every merchant would have at the register to take money from people) and all of a sudden money is moving from one account to another like freaking magic. > > It is impossible to completely secure _anything_, hardware or software, that the enemy has physical possession of; at best, you can make it so the cost of breaking the device is higher than the benefits that would accrue from a break.\* This would be impossible if the machine could, in theory, print money. > > \*(This isn’t perfect, though: Some people take great joy in breaking devices, which makes a mockery of this economic rationality. I’m certain some people would take great joy in breaking any point-of-sale chip reader design.) The Octopus card has been in widespread circulation for over a decade now in Hong Kong and there have been no known successful hacks upon the system. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261/69 "2009-12-01T18:40:48Z")
> [@](#): > > That really is it, isn’t it? I’ve tried to make this point less eloquently to people on many occasions. When people get up in arms about ‘fascism, fascism’, I try to explain to them how they are ruled more by systems analysis than they are by a cult of personality fascist dictator. Exactly. Big Brother is just one guy up on a poster. It’s those anonymous bureaucrats at the Ministry of Love who will really hurt you. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261/70 "2009-12-01T19:04:03Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > And if they “officially” name the device encoder right, few if any of those people will ever realize they’ve been defrauded. I mean, how people will note a single charge from from _Starbucks_? I would, because I know for a fact that I wouldn’t be caught dead buying their charcoal water. The problem with putting a touch, however light, on enough people is that you eventually run into someone who’s paying attention. (For example, the [“Cuckoo’s Egg” case](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cuckoo's_Egg_(book)) began with an attempt to track down a 75-cent discrepancy.) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261/71 "2009-12-01T20:46:06Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I blame Rand. McNally?😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-use-embedded-computer-chips-to-lower-corruption-and-crime/519261.md?page=3)