# Why not Vote for Roy Moore? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2017, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261 "2017-12-12T04:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/101 "2017-12-13T00:08:04Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Of if you’ve ever claimed to be a supporter of the Constitution. Moore was, after all, removed from the bench twice for defying it. I’m kind of peeved that nobody seems to be talking about that. because many Christian fundamentalists believe their bible is the highest law. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/102 "2017-12-13T01:01:08Z")
Something occurred to me, dunno if we have broached this before. Suppose McConnell pukes hard and the rest of the Senate joins in, refuses to seat the Swamp Thing. Does that mean the Governor of Alabama chooses a replacement? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/103 "2017-12-13T01:18:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Something occurred to me, dunno if we have broached this before. Suppose McConnell pukes hard and the rest of the Senate joins in, refuses to seat the Swamp Thing. Does that mean the Governor of Alabama chooses a replacement? Mitch McConnell showing a sense of integrity and taking a stand on principle? That would be like Paul Ryan displaying a backbone, or Ted Cruz being named ‘Most Likeable Senator’ by Congressional Quarterly. **Cruz** : I’m in GQ? Am I the 2017 Most Stylish Man of the Year? **Janitor** : No, Ted. CQ _Roll Call_…and they’re totally fucking with you. Nobody likes you, Ted. Go away. (Cruz slinks off — cue “Sad Charlie Brown Theme”) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/104 "2017-12-13T01:37:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Something occurred to me, dunno if we have broached this before. Suppose McConnell pukes hard and the rest of the Senate joins in, refuses to seat the Swamp Thing. Does that mean the Governor of Alabama chooses a replacement? Yes. BTW, I started a thread in elections about this idea. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/105 "2017-12-13T03:34:49Z")
Several news outlets are calling it for Jones. Hallelujah. The American voter puts integrity and ethics over party. Now if only Congress will follow suit. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/106 "2017-12-13T05:07:42Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Wanna name two who are comparable to Trump and Moore in terms of (a) being morally and ethically unfit for office, and (b) being laughably incompetent, but (c) **who were elected anyway** after all these facts were known? Representative **Alcee Hastings** , who just resigned for sexual harassment, was impeached and disbarred in Florida in 1989 for accepting bribes. He was then elected to the House in 1993 and has been re-elected ever since. While a congressman, he had his sexual assault allegations hushed with use of the ‘slush fund’ used to pay off the accusers of skeevy politicians. In 2004 he said of Sarah Palin, “Anybody toting guns and stripping moose don’t care too much about what they do with Jews and blacks.” **Ted Kennedy** killed a woman in 1969 by driving off the road while almost certainly intoxicated. He then left the scene of the accident and was convicted for doing so. That didn’t stop him from continuing a 47 year career in the Senate. **Robert Byrd** was re-elected multiple times even though it was well known that he was an ex-Klansman. And not just some foot soldier - he rose to the rank of “Exalted Cyclops”, which is the top position in a local Klan unit. Here’s part of a lovely letter Byrd wrote to segregationist Senator Thodore G. Bilbo: > [@](#): > > I shall never fight in the armed forces with a negro by my side … Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds. > > — Robert C. Byrd, Your party kept re-electing this guy until the day he died. **Bill Clinton** was impeached and disbarred for lying under oath. He was accused of sexual assault and rape by multiple women. He paid $850,000 to Paula Jones to make her case go away. He is still a beloved figure to many Democrats, or at least was until this current sexual assault moral panic began. **William Jefferson** won the Democratic primary in Louisiana, defeating six other Democrats _while under indictment for bribery_. He was convicted and sentenced to 13 years in prison. Then of course we can talk about all those corrupt local Democratic politicians like Marion Barry and the corrupt Machine Democrats like the Daly’s and Rod Blagojevich. The big Democratically run cities like Detroit and Washington DC are riddled with corrupt politicians and thuggish machine tactics, but they’ve held onto power in those cities with an iron fist. The only thing that seems to stop their careers is jail. [Half of the candidates for Detroit Mayor are convicted felons](http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2017/08/02/half-detroit-mayoral-candidates-felony-convictions/104244406/) > [@](#): > > Detroit — Half of the eight mayoral hopefuls on Detroit’s primary ballot next week have been convicted of felony crimes involving drugs, assault or weapons, a Detroit News analysis shows. > > Three were charged with gun crimes and two for assault with intent to commit murder. Some of the offenses date back decades, the earliest to 1977. The most recent was in 2008. There are a lot of politicians in both parties who have been elected despite being obvious crooks or having other flaws. The voters elect them because they serve their interests. Robert Byrd has his name plastered on half of the buildings and parks in his state. He was a master at bringing home the bacon, so he kept winning despite his opinion of the ‘mongrel races’. He just had to do the public penance of announcing he was a new man, and all was forgiven. Even when the mask occasionally slipped a tad. And sometimes scum get elected simply because the other side has even bigger scum. If you had to choose between Donald Trump and say Marion Barry, who would you vote for? Both of them are idiots and losers, but only one of them wants to end abortion or shut down your union supporters. And the other one probably has way better parties. So you hold your nose, and damned if you didn’t just for a coke addict for President. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/107 "2017-12-13T06:13:51Z")
Since Marion Barry is dead, it’s a pretty easy choice: I’d vote for Barry. Between Dead Barry and Trump, Dead Barry would do a lot less damage. You’ve done a good job of cherry-picking candidates whose unethical/illegal acts didn’t get them booted out of office or impeached or run out of town on a rail. How about all those whose political careers WERE ended due to their bad deeds? A partial list: Richard Nixon: resigned when it became obvious impeachment for obstruction of justice, abuse of power, and defiance of subpoenas was inevitable. Gary Hart: forced out of the primary race due to allegations of Monkey Business. John Edwards: forced to withdraw from the presidential primary due to an affair. Spiro T. Agnew: forced to resign as VP when indicted for income tax evasion. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/108 "2017-12-13T06:57:38Z")
Sure. I was responding to a specific request for two or more examples of Democrats who were elected despite being sketchy characters. Both sides selectively choose what to 'be outraged about depending on which way the winds are blowing and how much strategic advantage/disadvantage they might get from doing so. Don’t think for a minute that the Republicans turned on Nixon or the Democrats turned on John Edwards for moral reasons. They did it because the political calculus said it was the thing to do. You’ve gotta offer up a head or two from time to time, if for no other reason than to give the other scumbags cover as they carry out their own form of perfidy. The events of the last year or two have not left me with warm feelings for either party in the U.S, or its government in general. It looks to me like both sides are going off the rails in opposite directions. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/109 "2017-12-13T07:20:16Z")
> [@](#): > > But at 4:32 p.m. Monday, attorneys for Alabama Secretary of State John Merrill and Ed Packard, the state administrator of elections, filed an “emergency motion to stay” that order, which the state Supreme Court granted minutes after Merrill and Packard’s motion was filed. Why is the need to destroy the paper trail an “emergency”? Will it just be the ballots in D-leaning areas that will be destroyed? How many absentee ballots were cast? I’m sure that many women in a place like Alabama feel constrained when their husband watches them fill in a ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/110 "2017-12-13T08:34:59Z")
A victory for #metoo tonight. Good job Alabama, send Chester the molester off to pout somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/111 "2017-12-13T09:46:20Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > A victory for #metoo tonight. Good job Alabama, send Chester the molester off to pout somewhere. He’ll always be [Uncle Roy](http://snltranscripts.jt.org/78/78tuncleroy.phtml) to me (after Buck Henry’s recurring character on the early years of SNL). [URL=“[SNL Transcripts: Buck Henry: 05/24/80: Uncle Roy - SNL Transcripts Tonight](http://snltranscripts.jt.org/79/79troy.phtml)”] ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/112 "2017-12-13T13:01:03Z")
And the horse you rode in on, Roy. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/113 "2017-12-13T13:36:17Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Both sides selectively choose what to 'be outraged about depending on which way the winds are blowing and how much strategic advantage/disadvantage they might get from doing so. Don’t think for a minute that the Republicans turned on Nixon or the Democrats turned on John Edwards for moral reasons. They did it because the political calculus said it was the thing to do. I can’t get too upset about the right thing being done for largely political reasons, any more than I feel outrage over the fact that skulduggery is uncovered because the other party is motivated to investigate. Partisanship has its uses. Anyway, Moore’s loss is sort of a win-win for Dems and Republicans. Democrats can claim a short-lived victory (until the seat comes up for grabs again) and a bit more support for shooting down GOP bills, while Republicans can console themselves that it won’t make much difference in their (in)ability to pass major legislation, plus Democrats lose a talking point re their opponents’ War Against Women. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/114 "2017-12-13T13:54:07Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Both sides… both sides … If you really can’t see a difference, you aren’t paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/115 "2017-12-13T14:18:38Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > There are a lot of politicians in both parties who have been elected despite being obvious crooks or having other flaws. The voters elect them because they serve their interests. Robert Byrd has his name plastered on half of the buildings and parks in his state. He was a master at bringing home the bacon, so he kept winning despite his opinion of the ‘mongrel races’. He just had to do the public penance of announcing he was a new man, and all was forgiven. Even when the mask occasionally slipped a tad. I asked for examples of Democrats who were elected despite having the character of the Republicans we were discussing, notably Trump and Roy Moore. Your post tries to show that Democrats have had many such politicians, but on closer examination these would be persuasive only to someone completely lacking knowledge of any context or any sense of how incredibly selectively cherry-picked the examples and incidents are and how badly they misrepresent the actual facts. Someone like a new-born baby or an alien from another planet might be persuaded, or a totally myopic partisan, but no one else. Ted Kennedy had an exemplary and honorable Senate career marred by a single moment of panic during a life-threatening emotional event precipitated by an accident. Bill Clinton had one of the most successful presidencies of the modern era, marred by a number of incidents of varying degrees of believability which collectively show that, at worst, his otherwise sterling qualities are undermined by being a horndog. Yet **you would have us believe that in their ethics and character, Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton were the equivalent of Roy Moore and Donald Trump** ; this is the stuff not even of Fox News but of Breitbart, yet you say it apparently in all seriousness. It’s the same with all your other examples. There’s a very significant story to be told in each case, and you fail to tell it, leaving only a single naked cherry-picked fact to hang in the air without context and mislead the reader. Take the example of Robert Byrd, whom you quote to let everyone know that he was an incorrigible racist, yet Democrats kept re-electing him. What you don’t tell us is that he was born in 1917 and began serving in Congress in 1953, and his racism in those early years was the racism of the times, the times of the infamous _Negro Motorist’s Green Book_ which purported to help African-Americans travel cross-country by car without being beaten or killed. What you don’t tell us is that he completely changed starting in the late 50s, hiring one of the first black Congressional aides in Congress, supporting integration, and eventually completely renouncing his previous views and becoming a strong supporter of civil rights throughout his distinguished Senatorial career. Towards the end of that career, the NAACP gave his voting record a 100% score, and at the time of his death the NAACP declared him “a champion for civil rights and liberties” who “came to consistently support the NAACP civil rights agenda”. Is that the racist you were talking about? And now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going back to celebrating the defeat of the Republican serial child molester, the one who was twice removed from the Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/116 "2017-12-13T15:21:49Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > … Your post tries to show that Democrats have had many such politicians, but on closer examination these would be persuasive only to someone completely lacking knowledge of any context or any sense of how incredibly selectively cherry-picked the examples and incidents are and how badly they misrepresent the actual facts. Someone like a new-born baby or an alien from another planet might be persuaded, or a totally myopic partisan, but no one else. > … > It’s the same with all your other examples. There’s a very significant story to be told in each case, and you fail to tell it, leaving only a single naked cherry-picked fact to hang in the air without context and mislead the reader. Take the example of Robert Byrd, whom you quote to let everyone know that he was an incorrigible racist, yet Democrats kept re-electing him. What you don’t tell us is that he was born in 1917 and began serving in Congress in 1953, and his racism in those early years was the racism of the times, the times of the infamous _Negro Motorist’s Green Book_ which purported to help African-Americans travel cross-country by car without being beaten or killed. What you don’t tell us is that he completely changed starting in the late 50s, hiring one of the first black Congressional aides in Congress, supporting integration, and eventually completely renouncing his previous views and becoming a strong supporter of civil rights throughout his distinguished Senatorial career. Towards the end of that career, the NAACP gave his voting record a 100% score, and at the time of his death the NAACP declared him “a champion for civil rights and liberties” who “came to consistently support the NAACP civil rights agenda”. Is that the racist you were talking about? > > And now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going back to celebrating the defeat of the Republican serial child molester, the one who was twice removed from the Supreme Court. Thank you, **wolfpup** , for your insight, eloquence and patience. IIRC, both you and the Doper you’re responding to come from Canada. Please move to the U.S., **wolfpup** ; we could use your help! 🙂 (Although it appears you do have some FoxNews-level ignorance to fight even in the Great White North.) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/117 "2017-12-13T15:23:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And the horse you rode in on, Roy. The best part is that Moore was riding an underage female horse. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/118 "2017-12-13T15:32:01Z")
But, **wolfpup** , Lincoln was a Republican! ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/119 "2017-12-13T16:00:02Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The best part is that Moore was riding an underage female horse. It’s a beautiful horse. Too bad it didn’t throw that sack of shit off and run away. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261/120 "2017-12-13T16:04:53Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The best part is that Moore was riding an underage female horse. A filly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-not-vote-for-roy-moore/804261.md?page=7)