# Why now, Jacob Marley? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 30, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166 "2017-11-30T18:03:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a87d85/32.png) [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Dodgy_Dude)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/21 "2017-12-01T00:54:43Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > How old is Tiny Tim? Is he seven? I haven’t read the story in a long time, but IIRC, he is dead by next Christmas, if nothing changes, so Scrooge must change immediately if Tim is to be saved. In other words, if Marley had waited eight years, Tim would be dead. If Tim is to play a major role, he has to, first of all, be born, and second of all, be ill enough for his illness to be significant. People were diagnosed with things when symptoms appeared back them. Even if Tim had a disease he was born with, the symptoms would have had to have shown up. Also, Tim’s personality, in contrast to Scrooge’s, is a major plot point. He has to be old enough for his personality to have emerged. > > So really, I think that’s the explanation. Tim. Ah! Interesting! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/22 "2017-12-01T00:57:52Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > How old is Tiny Tim? He’d be 85 if he were still living. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/23 "2017-12-01T01:53:38Z")
7-Up Don’t look at me that way-Y’all took all the _good_ ones! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/24 "2017-12-01T02:01:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 7-Up > Don’t look at me that way-Y’all took all the _good_ ones! You could’ve had the film _SE7EN_ but noooooooooo… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a87d85/32.png) [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Dodgy_Dude)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/25 "2017-12-01T04:42:53Z")
Seven Sacraments Seven of Nine ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/26 "2017-12-01T04:54:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 7-Up > Don’t look at me that way-Y’all took all the good ones! I bought it at the 7-Eleven Seven Deadly Sins Seven Virtues You’re right, they took all the good ones ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/27 "2017-12-01T05:11:21Z")
> [@guestchaz](#): > > You’re right, they took all the good ones Not really. Seven matriarchs and patriarchs in the bible. (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebekah, Leah & Rachel). ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/28 "2017-12-01T06:15:06Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > How old is Tiny Tim? Is he seven? I haven’t read the story in a long time, but IIRC, he is dead by next Christmas, if nothing changes, so Scrooge must change immediately if Tim is to be saved. In other words, if Marley had waited eight years, Tim would be dead. If Tim is to play a major role, he has to, first of all, be born, and second of all, be ill enough for his illness to be significant. People were diagnosed with things when symptoms appeared back them. Even if Tim had a disease he was born with, the symptoms would have had to have shown up. Also, Tim’s personality, in contrast to Scrooge’s, is a major plot point. He has to be old enough for his personality to have emerged. > > So really, I think that’s the explanation. Tim. Interesting speculation, but Tim’s age is not mentioned in the book. Note that Dickens originally wrote “ten” years had passed since Marley’s death, then crossed it out and wrote “seven”. You can make it out in a facsimile of page 5 of the original manuscript. Here’s a link where you can see it, but the site seems a bit dodgy, so I’ve spoilered it. I didn’t have any problems, but use at your own risk. [A Christmas Carol. The Original Manuscript. A Facsimile of the Manuscript in The Pierpont Morgan Library with a Transcript of the First Edition and John Leech’s Illustrations](http://www.fadedpage.com/showbook.php?pid=20091008) ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/29 "2017-12-01T06:39:37Z")
7 wonders of the world ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/30 "2017-12-01T06:52:52Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > Interesting speculation, but Tim’s age is not mentioned in the book. > > Note that Dickens originally wrote “ten” years had passed since Marley’s death, then crossed it out and wrote “seven”. You can make it out in a facsimile of page 5 of the original manuscript. Here’s a link where you can see it, but the site seems a bit dodgy, so I’ve spoilered it. I didn’t have any problems, but use at your own risk. > > [A Christmas Carol. The Original Manuscript. A Facsimile of the Manuscript in The Pierpont Morgan Library with a Transcript of the First Edition and John Leech’s Illustrations](http://www.fadedpage.com/showbook.php?pid=20091008) The number may be arbitrary, but the answer to “Why now?” is still that this is Tim’s last Christmas, unless he gets help. Help won’t come without a radical change in his father’s circumstance, which won’t come without a change of heart for Scrooge. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/31 "2017-12-01T07:33:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 7-Up > Don’t look at me that way-Y’all took all the _good_ ones! Snow White and the Magnificent Seven Dwarves. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/32 "2017-12-01T15:35:13Z")
“To remove the curse, run around the Seven Hills of Rome seven times!” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/33 "2017-12-01T15:45:28Z")
Seven come eleven. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a87d85/32.png) [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Dodgy_Dude)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/34 "2017-12-01T18:29:31Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > The number may be arbitrary, but the answer to “Why now?” is still that this is Tim’s last Christmas, unless he gets help. Help won’t come without a radical change in his father’s circumstance, which won’t come without a change of heart for Scrooge. Pretty good, Rivkah, pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/35 "2017-12-01T18:46:58Z")
Is it definitively written somewhere that this Christmas will be Tiny Tim’s last Christmas unless something is done? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/36 "2017-12-01T18:57:52Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Is it definitively written somewhere that this Christmas will be Tiny Tim’s last Christmas unless something is done? The Ghost of Christmas Present said that if these shadows are not changed, not another one of my family will see the boy alive(paraphrased). ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/37 "2017-12-01T19:01:54Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The Ghost of Christmas Present said that if these shadows are not changed, not another one of my family will see the boy alive(paraphrased). [Project Gutenberg](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/46/46-h/46-h.htm) > [@](#): > > “Spirit,” said Scrooge, with an interest he had never felt before, “tell me if Tiny Tim will live.” > > “I see a vacant seat,” replied the Ghost, “in the poor chimney-corner, and a crutch without an owner, carefully preserved. If these shadows remain unaltered by the Future, the child will die.” > > “No, no,” said Scrooge. “Oh, no, kind Spirit! say he will be spared.” > > **“If these shadows remain unaltered by the Future, none other of my race,” returned the Ghost, “will find him here.** What then? If he be like to die, he had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.” ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/38 "2017-12-01T19:18:34Z")
This may seem like a hijack, but I think it’s relevant to the question. It helps to keep in mind that the entire story is told from the POV of Scrooge. It’s not a first-person narration, but everything happens in his presence (or is in his personal history). In other words, it’s very easy to treat the events as a product of Scrooge’s mind. (A lot of movies and theater productions get this wrong, showing events that do not happen in his presence.) If the personal epiphanies are a product of Scrooge’s own mind and the result of his miserable existence, the real question would be, “Why are the date and the seven years important to Scrooge?” Of course, someone is going to say, “That’s not right. Scrooge recognizes his nephew’s wife, knows some things he would only know if the Spirits actually transported him, etc.” I’ll disagree, but that’s why we have threads to discuss such things. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/39 "2017-12-01T22:08:35Z")
Well, in the Torah, seven years was the length of a debt. Debts were cancelled every seven years. That law did not apply in England, but it was probably something Scrooge was aware of. Just trying to think why the number might have been significant to Scrooge. Surely he was aware of Tiny Tim, though. Maybe it had registered in his brain somewhere that Tim was looking worse lately. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/40 "2017-12-01T22:39:57Z")
\Mannheim Steamroller’s [Fresh Aire 7](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresh_Aire_7). (Which has 12 tracks 😕, but at least the titles are all about seven.)\ I agree with Rivkah’s point, though. The dramatic “why now” is tied to Tiny Tim’s failing health. Even if Scrooge had never laid eyes on the lad, the boy’s father may have given out hints of concern that Scrooge would have picked up on. (If only to assess how much of a nuisance Bob Cratchit was going to be about time off if the boy dies.) As to “why seven”, seven is the mystical lucky number. The whole story is supernatural, so supernatural numbers resonate. The Sabbath Year Rivkah mentions resonates along with it – a year to liberate slaves and forgive debts and rest the fields. I don’t know if Victorian English would have recognized it – I’m not sure how prevalent Old Testament literacy was – but it is a part of the cultural background of the whole supernatural thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166.md?page=3)