# Why now, Jacob Marley? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 30, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166 "2017-11-30T18:03:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/41 "2017-12-01T23:00:06Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > As to “why seven”, seven is the mystical lucky number. The whole story is supernatural, so supernatural numbers resonate. The Sabbath Year Rivkah mentions resonates along with it – a year to liberate slaves and forgive debts and rest the fields. I don’t know if Victorian English would have recognized it – I’m not sure how prevalent Old Testament literacy was – but it is a part of the cultural background of the whole supernatural thing. Seven is also in the New Testament quite a bit. The Book of Revelation has 7 all over it - it’s written to Seven churches in Asia, Seven Seals, Seven Spirits of God, etc, etc. I agree with you that it is considered an important mystical number, hence that’s why I think he comes back 7 years later. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/42 "2017-12-02T00:36:02Z")
I have been digging, including in my book, _Dickens of London_, and apparently Charles Dickens had a nephew with a disability who was the model for Tiny Tim (who went through a number of name in various drafts of the manuscript). I cannot find out how old he was at the time the novella was written, though. OT, but Tom’s disposition was not unrealistic. I actually knew a kid like him. I worked with him when I worked in community living for disabled people, and he was the ringbearer at my wedding. He was extremely bright, and always in a cheerful mood. He had CP, and used an electric wheelchair. He was one of the coolest kids I ever knew. He’s about 24 now. I haven’t seen him in a while, but I get his mother’s Xmas letter every year, and I always send her a card acknowledging it. He’s in grad school now. ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/43 "2017-12-02T00:59:42Z")
> [@ZonexandScout](#): > > Of course, someone is going to say, “That’s not right. Scrooge recognizes his nephew’s wife, knows some things he would only know if the Spirits actually transported him, etc.” I’ll disagree, but that’s why we have threads to discuss such things. Well, yeah, that’s always a possibility. The “Spirit of Christmas” may be an abstract within us all, and it just burst forth from Scrooge’s mind one day at random. Maybe Hamlet never spoke with his dead father. Oh yeah, Horatio and the others saw _something_, but only Hamlet had a secret dialog. And wouldn’t cha know – dad’s ghost says just what Hamlet suspected. How convenient. You can apply a rational explanation to (almost) any M. Knight Shalyman movie, if you believe the protagonist is a freaking loon who’ll distort their own reporting to the viewer to suit themselves. Didn’t Slartibartfarst say, “Oh that’s just paranoia, everyone in the universe has that.” There’s stuff associated with the time to be sure. Another example: Bob Crachit’s son is now old enough to apprentice to Scrooge’s nephew – at a high wage. Scrooge may have heard that elsewhere, and it may have rankled him – while simultaneously reminding him of good times with Fezzywig (damn, that sounds dirtier than I meant it to.) And he may suspect Crachit’s eldest daughter is due for marrying and starting her own family soon. This is the last “workhouse holiday” she’ll get. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/44 "2017-12-02T18:22:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 7-Up > Don’t look at me that way-Y’all took all the _good_ ones! > [@guestchaz](#): > > I bought it at the 7-Eleven > > Seven Deadly Sins > Seven Virtues > > You’re right, they took all the good ones Nobody’s mentioned Seagram’s 7. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/45 "2017-12-02T18:45:55Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > Well, yeah, that’s always a possibility. The “Spirit of Christmas” may be an abstract within us all, and it just burst forth from Scrooge’s mind one day at random. > > Maybe Hamlet never spoke with his dead father. Oh yeah, Horatio and the others saw _something_, but only Hamlet had a secret dialog. And wouldn’t cha know – dad’s ghost says just what Hamlet suspected. How convenient. > > You can apply a rational explanation to (almost) any M. Knight Shalyman movie, if you believe the protagonist is a freaking loon who’ll distort their own reporting to the viewer to suit themselves. The solution is obvious - Scrooge is a replicant. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/46 "2017-12-02T20:13:48Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > Well, yeah, that’s always a possibility. The “Spirit of Christmas” may be an abstract within us all, and it just burst forth from Scrooge’s mind one day at random. > > Maybe Hamlet never spoke with his dead father. Oh yeah, Horatio and the others saw _something_, but only Hamlet had a secret dialog. And wouldn’t cha know – dad’s ghost says just what Hamlet suspected. How convenient. > > You can apply a rational explanation to (almost) any M. Knight Shalyman movie, if you believe the protagonist is a freaking loon who’ll distort their own reporting to the viewer to suit themselves. > > Didn’t Slartibartfarst say, “Oh that’s just paranoia, everyone in the universe has that.” > > There’s stuff associated with the time to be sure. Another example: Bob Crachit’s son is now old enough to apprentice to Scrooge’s nephew – at a high wage. Scrooge may have heard that elsewhere, and it may have rankled him – while simultaneously reminding him of good times with Fezzywig (damn, that sounds dirtier than I meant it to.) And he may suspect Crachit’s eldest daughter is due for marrying and starting her own family soon. This is the last “workhouse holiday” she’ll get. Oh, I’m not arguing for a totally rational explanation of this (or any other) literary work. But it was rather clever of Dickens to leave the option open for a purely psychological explanation of the events. Again, I think the subtlety is often overlooked when it is produced for other media. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/47 "2017-12-02T20:35:17Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > Maybe Hamlet never spoke with his dead father. Oh yeah, Horatio and the others saw _something_, but only Hamlet had a secret dialog. And wouldn’t cha know – dad’s ghost says just what Hamlet suspected. How convenient. Later in the play, Hamlet refers to death as the undiscovered country that no traveler returns from. Which is a strange line for somebody who recently talked to a ghost. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/48 "2017-12-02T22:00:15Z")
Monica Geller: “Seven! Seven! Seven! Seven! SEVEN!!!” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/49 "2017-12-03T05:05:35Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > The number may be arbitrary, but the answer to “Why now?” is still that this is Tim’s last Christmas, unless he gets help. Help won’t come without a radical change in his father’s circumstance, which won’t come without a change of heart for Scrooge. Huh. I never interpreted it that way when I read it before, but you are correct. “Spirit,” said Scrooge, with an interest he had never felt before, “tell me if Tiny Tim will live.” “I see a vacant seat,” replied the Ghost [of Christmas Present] , “in the poor chimney-corner, and a crutch without an owner, carefully preserved. If these shadows remain unaltered by the Future, the child will die.” “No, no,” said Scrooge. “Oh, no, kind Spirit! say he will be spared.” “If these shadows remain unaltered by the Future, **none other of my race,** ” returned the Ghost, “ **will find him here**. What then? If he be like to die, he had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.” (bolding and brackets mine) The Ghost of Christmas Present lives but one year. And the other Ghosts only see Christmases. So if this Ghost is the last who will see him, then Tim will die by next year. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/50 "2017-12-03T12:57:56Z")
7 of 9 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/51 "2017-12-03T13:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **ZonexandScout** : > > It helps to keep in mind that the entire story is told from the POV of Scrooge. It’s not a first-person narration, but everything happens in his presence (or is in his personal history). In other words, it’s very easy to treat the events as a product of Scrooge’s mind. (A lot of movies and theater productions get this wrong, showing events that do not happen in his presence.) Well, I know for sure that my middle school production got it right, because I was Scrooge, and in the whole play there was all of about six seconds when I wasn’t on stage. I and the kid who played Bob Cratchitt also noticed that, between the two of us, we had the entire play memorized, because every single line was either delivered by one of us, the cue for one of us, or cued by one of us. In retrospect, I’m a little surprised that a middle school would pick a play that sits so heavily on the shoulders of one or two kids. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/52 "2017-12-03T13:34:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The Ghost of Christmas Present lives but one year. Huh, I thought the GC-Present lived only one _day_ (i.e. December 24th, expiring at midnight) but in skimming the text I see some potential contradictions: Early in the story, at the counting house: > [@](#): > > “You’ll want **all day to-morrow** , I suppose?” said Scrooge. > > “If quite convenient, sir.” [said Cratchit] > > “It’s not convenient,” said Scrooge, “and it’s not fair. If I was to stop half-a-crown for it, you’d think yourself ill-used, I’ll be bound?” > > The clerk smiled faintly. > > “And yet,” said Scrooge, “you don’t think me ill-used, when I pay a day’s wages for no work.” > > The clerk observed that it was only once a year. > > “A poor excuse for picking a man’s pocket every **twenty-fifth of December**!” said Scrooge, buttoning his great-coat to the chin. “But I suppose you must have the whole day. Be here all the earlier next morning.” During Marley’s visit: > [@](#): > > “Without their visits,” said the Ghost, “you cannot hope to shun the path I tread. Expect the first to-morrow, when the bell tolls One.” > > “Couldn’t I take 'em all at once, and have it over, Jacob?” hinted Scrooge. > > “ **Expect the second on the next night at the same hour. The third upon the next night when the last stroke of Twelve has ceased to vibrate.** Look to see me no more; and look that, for your own sake, you remember what has passed between us!” Later, after the three Spirits have passed: > [@](#): > > Running to the window, he opened it, and put out his head. No fog, no mist; clear, bright, jovial, stirring, cold; cold, piping for the blood to dance to; Golden sunlight; Heavenly sky; sweet fresh air; merry bells. Oh, glorious! Glorious! > > “What’s to-day!” cried Scrooge, calling downward to a boy in Sunday clothes, who perhaps had loitered in to look about him. > > “EH?” returned the boy, with all his might of wonder. > > “What’s to-day, my fine fellow?” said Scrooge. > > “To-day!” replied the boy. “Why, CHRISTMAS DAY.” > > “It’s Christmas Day!” said Scrooge to himself. “I haven’t missed it. **The Spirits have done it all in one night.** They can do anything they like. Of course they can. Of course they can. Hallo, my fine fellow!” Bolding added. I’d always assumed (and the various film adaptations seem to agree) that the story begins on the 24th, and that Marley and the Spirits visit Scrooge on that night, with the GC-Present ending his visit (and expiring) at midnight and GC-Future arriving around 1 a.m. on the morning of the 25th. Marley says the visits will be on subsequent days (the 22nd-24th of December?) but other passages don’t match. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/53 "2017-12-03T13:42:15Z")
Or maybe Scrooge does experience them one per night over the course of three nights, but those three nights (and the intervening joyless days) all occur between the clock starting to strike midnight and finishing on Christmas Eve. The supernatural doesn’t need to conform to the rules of our world. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/54 "2017-12-03T13:46:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Or maybe Scrooge does experience them one per night over the course of three nights, but those three nights (and the intervening joyless days) all occur between the clock starting to strike midnight and finishing on Christmas Eve. The supernatural doesn’t need to conform to the rules of our world. I think it more likely Dickens screwed up and his editor didn’t catch it. Marley should have visited at around 9 p.m. (on the 24th) and warned of spirits that would stop by at 10, 11, and shortly after midnight. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/55 "2017-12-03T17:18:48Z")
No. When Scrooge awakes from the dream, and calls to the boy down in the street he says: “What’s to-day, my fine fellow?” said Scrooge. “To-day!” replied the boy. “Why, Christmas Day.” “It’s Christmas Day!” said Scrooge to himself. “I haven’t missed it. The Spirits have done it all in one night. They can do anything they like. Of course they can. Of course they can. Hallo, my fine fellow!” So, **Chronos** has it right! mc ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-now-jacob-marley/803166/56 "2017-12-03T17:38:02Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > No. When Scrooge awakes from the dream, and calls to the boy down in the street he says: > “What’s to-day, my fine fellow?” said Scrooge. > > “To-day!” replied the boy. “Why, Christmas Day.” > > “It’s Christmas Day!” said Scrooge to himself. “I haven’t missed it. The Spirits have done it all in one night. They can do anything they like. Of course they can. Of course they can. Hallo, my fine fellow!” > > So, **Chronos** has it right! > > mc I can see why Scrooge might _think_ he was with the spirits for days (especially the first one, since it involves traipsing through multiple events of Scrooge’s past over a period of decades) and the whole experience is so discombobulating that he might lose track of time completely, but the earlier conversation with Cratchit clearly takes place on the 24th. Further, here is the transition from the visit of GC-Past to GC-Present: > [@](#): > > The Spirit [of Christmas Past] dropped beneath it, so that the extinguisher covered its whole form; but though Scrooge pressed it down with all his force, he could not hide the light: which streamed from under it, in an unbroken flood upon the ground. > > He was conscious of being exhausted, and overcome by an irresistible drowsiness; and, further, of being in his own bedroom. He gave the cap a parting squeeze, in which his hand relaxed; and had barely time to reel to bed, before he sank into a heavy sleep. > STAVE III: THE SECOND OF THE THREE SPIRITS > > AWAKING in the middle of a prodigiously tough snore, and sitting up in bed to get his thoughts together, Scrooge had no occasion to be told that the bell was again upon the stroke of One. He felt that he was restored to consciousness in the right nick of time, for the especial purpose of holding a conference with the second messenger despatched to him through Jacob Marley’s intervention. But finding that he turned uncomfortably cold when he began to wonder which of his curtains this new spectre would draw back, he put them every one aside with his own hands; and lying down again, established a sharp look-out all round the bed. For he wished to challenge the Spirit on the moment of its appearance, and did not wish to be taken by surprise, and made nervous. > > Gentlemen of the free-and-easy sort, who plume themselves on being acquainted with a move or two, and being usually equal to the time-of-day, express the wide range of their capacity for adventure by observing that they are good for anything from pitch-and-toss to manslaughter; between which opposite extremes, no doubt, there lies a tolerably wide and comprehensive range of subjects. Without venturing for Scrooge quite as hardily as this, I don’t mind calling on you to believe that he was ready for a good broad field of strange appearances, and that nothing between a baby and rhinoceros would have astonished him very much. > > Now, being prepared for almost anything, he was not by any means prepared for nothing; and, consequently, when the Bell struck One, and no shape appeared, he was taken with a violent fit of trembling. Five minutes, ten minutes, a quarter of an hour went by, yet nothing came. All this time, he lay upon his bed, the very core and centre of a blaze of ruddy light, which streamed upon it when the clock proclaimed the hour; and which, being only light, was more alarming than a dozen ghosts, as he was powerless to make out what it meant, or would be at; and was sometimes apprehensive that he might be at that very moment an interesting case of spontaneous combustion, without having the consolation of knowing it. At last, however, he began to think–as you or I would have thought at first; for it is always the person not in the predicament who knows what ought to have been done in it, and would unquestionably have done it too–at last, I say, he began to think that the source and secret of this ghostly light might be in the adjoining room, from whence, on further tracing it, it seemed to shine. This idea taking full possession of his mind, he got up softly and shuffled in his slippers to the door. > > The moment Scrooge’s hand was on the lock, a strange voice called him by his name, and bade him enter. He obeyed. Good God, this is overly wordy. I read it as Scrooge falls asleep after GC-Past disappears and wakens a little later, at 1 a.m. on the morning of the 25th, to be accosted by GC-Present. What follows _feels_ like a day to Scrooge, ending with the clock striking midnight and GC-Present “dying” and being near-immediately replaced by GC-Future: > [@](#): > > Scrooge looked about him for the Ghost [of Christmas Present], and saw it not. As the last stroke ceased to vibrate, he remembered the prediction of old Jacob Marley, and lifting up his eyes, beheld a solemn Phantom, draped and hooded, coming, like a mist along the ground, towards him. Simplest explanation is that Marley spoke of virtual days rather than literal ones (there’s certainly no indication of normal days passing between the visits), and given the necessary magic involved… why not? Personally, I think it would have been simpler for Marley to predict and for the Ghosts to each take an hour over the night of the 24th-25th, then have Scrooge be all shocked that so little time has passed during each visit. Yeah, that’s right. I’m editing Dickens. Humbug! 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