# why on earth is JD a doctorate?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [May 31, 2002, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677 "2002-05-31T03:24:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/1 "2002-05-31T03:24:53Z")
When did the JD degree (law degree in the US) come about? Older lawyers have the old LLB degree, so it must have been recent. Since you get a LLM (Master of law??) after the JD, and you can get a JDS (doctor of juridical science) or PhD in law after that, why on earth is it a JD?
Seems like LLM would make sense for the first three years as this is comparable to the professional degree that business schools and policy schools hand out (MBA, MPP, MPA, etc.). And the JD. would come afterwards for another year of professional speciality and JDS or PhD for disseration and original research. No?
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### Author:  [@Manatee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manatee)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/2 "2002-05-31T05:10:33Z")
It’s a doctorate because Ph.D.'s need _someone_ to sneer at with disdain: “Well, at least my degree’s a REAL doctorate!”
Try it with your lawyer some time. They love it.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/3 "2002-05-31T12:03:36Z")
I believe it has been made into a doctorate for the same reason M.D. and other “professional” degrees were made into doctorates. Even today, in India, once you finish medical school, your degree isn’t “Doctor of Medicine” (which takes a lot more work), but “M.B.B.S.” (Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery).
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/4 "2002-05-31T12:06:04Z")
Oh, and to answer the OP – After LL.M., you can get an S.J.D. (Doctor of Juridical Science) or an LL.D. (Doctor of Laws), depending on the school.
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/5 "2002-05-31T12:21:22Z")
In something akin to “grade inflation”, the professional degrees awarded by US universities have, over time, crept up from being bachelors’ or masters’ degrees to being doctorates - this is true of divinity, medicine and law, and possibly of other professions also. In most other countries these degrees would not be considered, or called, doctorates.
Presumably in time the MBA awarded by US universities will become a DBA.
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### Author:  [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/6 "2002-05-31T13:07:59Z")
Isn’t the Doctor of Laws an honorary degree, usually awarded to political leaders? Just as literary folks who have no doctorate may receive an honorary Doctor of Letters?
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/7 "2002-05-31T14:33:47Z")
I think all kinds of degrees have been given to politicians and entertainers as honorary degrees, including true doctorates (Ph.D.) and other kinds of degrees. I think Bill Cosby’s (William H. Cosby Jr., that is) “Ed.D.” is an honorary degree.
The original honorary degrees, once given to only the most accomplished scholars and scientists, were Sci.D. and D.Litt. (Doctor of Letters).
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### Author:  [@Spritle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spritle)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/8 "2002-05-31T14:53:21Z")
Ed.D. is a valid degree; it’s a Doctor of Education. This is what most school superintendents have.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/9 "2002-05-31T15:09:17Z")
My point was that _Bill Cosby’s_ Ed.D. is, I believe, an honorary degree.
Actually, my point was that all kinds of degrees have been given out as honorary degrees, including ones that would be classified in your taxonomy as a “valid degree.”
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/10 "2002-05-31T15:21:01Z")
My WAG: the Law degree (and many other First Professional Degrees) becoming a doctorate may have to do with (a) higher entrance requirements and (b) the other sense of the term _doctor_, meaning one who imparts knowledge.
After all, if by the time you apply to professional school you are required to be already a graduate with a 4-year Social or Natural Science or Liberal Arts degree (and preferrably a top-of-the-class graduate), you sort of expect that going through it all over again, only harder, will give you a higher rank.
AND most First Professional Degrees allow you to hold academic positions at the university level , where normally you need a doctoral degree to rank anything above TA, never mind get tenure.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/11 "2002-05-31T15:33:43Z")
Bill Cosby’s Ed. D. is a _bona fide_ Ed. D. He had a BA in Education from temple as a Phys Ed teacher, got his Master’s in 1972, his EdD from UMassin 1977 A study on his Fat Albert cartoons served as a vehicle for reaching children was his Thesis/capstone project.
IIRC the difference seems to be that Ed.D. deals more with teaching and administration and Ph.D. more with theoretical research.
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### Author:  [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/12 "2002-05-31T17:57:58Z")
Is a JD a doctorate? I was told it’s not, even though it’s got the word “doctor” in it. A J.S.D. (or whatever you call it at your school) clearly is a doctorate. Could someone explain what “doctorate” means exactly?
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/13 "2002-05-31T18:20:21Z")
I’ll bet a donut you were told a JD isn’t a doctorate by someone with a Phd 😉
A JD is a doctorate if only because it purports to confer the title of doctor on someone. Phd’s sometimes pooh-pooh JD’s and MD’s as not being _real_ doctorates. The JSD is a second doctorate, more or less, sort of a “superdoctorate”. In any event, nobody calls lawyers “doctor” anyway.
I think the switch from LLB to JD came about around 35-40 years ago. There was only one LLB left at my school, and he recently retired. Most everyone else received their degrees since around 1970 onward, and are all JD’s.
-“Dr.” pravnik
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### Author:  [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/14 "2002-05-31T18:43:56Z")
I got my law degree 35-40 years ago. At that time at my university if you did not have an undergraduate degree before you started law school (some guys entered after 90 hours in undergrad) you got a LLB. If you did have a BA or BS before entering law school AND you were in the top 1/3 of the class you got a JD. About 20 years ago the university offered to convert all of the LLBs to JDs. In the English speaking world it doesn’t make much difference because lawyers don’t use a title, other than the pompous and brown-nosing Esquire. In continental Europe lawyers are called “Doctor” just as if they could set a broken leg or take out an appendix. It’s all ego.
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### Author:  [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/15 "2002-05-31T18:51:06Z")
I’d like it with chocolate and sprinkles. He was a third-year law student.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/16 "2002-05-31T19:47:41Z")
> [@](#):
>
> A JD is a doctorate if only because it purports to confer the title of doctor on someone.
Well, what good is that? I have a friend who has a mail-order degree from Miskatonic University, purporting to confer on him the title of Doctor of Medieval Metaphysics. Is he a doctor, too?
It’s not the title that makes the doctor, it’s the work.
(and yes, I am a PhD-track student, but I don’t think that that influences my opinion on this).
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/17 "2002-05-31T20:07:00Z")
Well, I suppose I could have said “a Juris Doctoral degree is a doctorate if only because it is a legitimate post-bachelor degree bestowed by a graduate level academic school purporting to bestow the title of ‘doctor’” so nobody would get it confused with a meaningless certificate from a degree mill, but I thought that would have been overstating the obvious.
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### Author:  [@tullius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullius)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/18 "2002-05-31T20:22:54Z")
As **acsenray** already suggested, the “JD” degree was adopted largely in imitation of the “MD” degree, which followed the Continental practice of conferring “doctorates” on people granted the basic license to practice a profession. (That’s why Castro, with a law degree, often styles himself “Doctor Castro.” I used to think it meant he had been a dentist or something.)
Initially, lawyers in the US followed the English practice of characterizing “entry level” professional degrees as bachelors degrees, thereby designating lawyers as LLBs. Under the English system, I believe physicians received (and may still receive) a bachelors of medicine degree, rather than an MD.
Although most US lawyers now receive JDs, actually calling themselves “doctor” is a violation of the professional ethics rules in most states. Several rulings have advised that using the term is akin to false advertising, as it might suggest to the public that the holder somehow has more legal training than “regular” lawyers who don’t call themselves doctor.
All in all, a fairly pointless change.
Tullius, JD
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/19 "2002-05-31T21:42:26Z")
Eh, that’s interesting. Do you have any links to any of these rulings?
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### Author:  [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2002, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-on-earth-is-jd-a-doctorate/111677/20 "2002-05-31T22:24:49Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by UDS \*
> \*\*Presumably in time the MBA awarded by US universities will become a DBA. \*\*
Too late. There’s already a degree called a DBA. My father got one from Indiana University 30+ years ago, and it’s different from an MBA.
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