# Why only men get drafted for war? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 21, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639 "2003-02-21T21:40:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/41 "2003-02-22T20:12:40Z")
## A group of 350 girls defended fortifications in Paris. Ameliane du Puget led a troop of women in Marseilles. Beatriz de Pardes and MarÃ\_a de Estrada fought with the Conquistadors in the New World. Lilliard led the Scots into battle against the English. Isabella I of Castile led her army. [http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/women.html](http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/women.html) Catherine the Great and others from the 18th century: [http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/women18.html](http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/women18.html) It is estimated that 750 women disguised themselves as men and fought in the American Civil War. [http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/women19.html](http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/women19.html) etc. etc. etc. Quotes from Species (1995) : Xavier Fitch: We decided to make it female so it would be more docile and controllable. Preston Lennox: More docile and controllable, eh? You guys don’t get out much. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/42 "2003-02-22T20:19:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sleeping \* > \*\*Is that really true? Women are not treated equally, but they are equal in theory (legally), right? > > I feel that acts that remedy any injustices should be passed and that the military should then have equal requirements for both men and women. > > \*\* Yes, it is true. In America, women are not equal under the law, nor “in theory”(what ever that is?). As Nametag pointed out in an earlier post, women were denied equality with the failure of the ERA ammendment back in the 1970’s. It would take years, if not decades, for another ERA proposed ammendment to be proposed, passed, and approved by the states. Until then - no draft for women. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/43 "2003-02-22T20:26:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > Yes, it is true. In America, women are not equal under the law, nor “in theory”(what ever that is?). By theory, I meant “before the law.” > [@](#): > > As Nametag pointed out in an earlier post, women were denied equality with the failure of the ERA ammendment back in the 1970’s. Oh. > [@](#): > > It would take years, if not decades, for another ERA proposed ammendment to be proposed, passed, and approved by the states. That sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/44 "2003-02-22T20:52:15Z")
## quote: ## It would take years, if not decades, for another ERA proposed ammendment to be proposed, passed, and approved by the states. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sleeping \* > \*\* > That sucks. \*\* It is not that bad considering everything, and considering how things have changed so much in the past decade. Women can now serve as volunteers in most military tasks, women are admitted inro all branches of the armed forces, women are now admitted to officers school, the marines, and to West Point, etc. For the most part, woman “can” join, and perform most combat roles, including shipboard duty, if we so choose. I can shoot a handgun better than most men I know, and I have shot an M-16 - I really dont see where it is that hard to do. Most school busses are now driven by women, and army trucks and tanks are no harder for a woman to drive than for a man to drive. Although in my earlier postings, I showed that women have fought for centruries, even as gladiators, today’s army does not depend on brute strength. There are a few combat roles that, politically, women are still not allowed to do - but it is somewhat offset by the basic choice we have whether or not to go into the army at all. Not a bad tradeoff, temporarily anyways. In the long run though, eventually, women WILL be allowed to serve in any and all combat roles that we want to, in the future, and we will still have the option to join the army or not. I think, IMO, in 10 years or so, the situation will be fully remedied and fair to all. I think we are very close to what the ideal situation should be, to choose to fight all the way, or not go in at all. I think the idea of “drafting” is a side issue, is irrelevent, and there is no need anyway to draft women. ---
**Author:** ![Magickly\_Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magickly\_Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magickly_Delicious)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/45 "2003-02-22T21:29:58Z")
I always assumed it was to prevent sticky situations. For example, say a young couple both happen to be drafted. Who takes care of their kids? ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/46 "2003-02-22T22:29:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*quote: > In the long run though, eventually, women WILL be allowed to serve in any and all combat roles that we want to, in the future, and we will still have the option to join the army or not. I think, IMO, in 10 years or so, the situation will be fully remedied and fair to all. I think we are very close to what the ideal situation should be, to choose to fight all the way, or not go in at all. I think the idea of “drafting” is a side issue, is irrelevent, and there is no need anyway to draft women. \*\* When you say “we” do you mean just women or everyone? ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/47 "2003-02-23T00:40:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sock Munkey \* > \*\*When you say “we” do you mean just women or everyone? \*\* “just women”? Do you mean “only women”? I mean only women. I dont like sons or husbands being drafted either, but there is not much I can do about that, and that is off topic. We are not questioning the draft per se, we are just explaining the differences of why women should NOT be drafted. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/48 "2003-02-23T02:29:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magickly Delicious \* > \*\*I always assumed it was to prevent sticky situations. For example, say a young couple both happen to be drafted. Who takes care of their kids? \*\* That was my first thought. Who’s left to take care of dependants? There may not be grandparents, aunts and uncles may be drafted. Aside from the “carrying on the human race” issue (and whoever said it was correct-females are far more important in ‘breeding’ than males. It only takes one male to impregnate a whole lotta women), there is the matter of maintaining the current young folk. peace, ~mixie ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/49 "2003-02-23T04:43:38Z")
Heck, I stand by my earlier statement. If a sizable percentage of the women are drafted, and then killed, who will there be to create the next generation? This issue is one of those where people are fighting for the “now”, and ignoring the future. Women, and the children that they will bear, are the future of any nation. To subject them to being drafted to fulfill a combat role is suicide on a national level. ---
**Author:** ![cart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@cart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cart)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/50 "2003-02-23T12:15:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*Yes, it is true. In America, women are not equal under the law, nor “in theory”(what ever that is?). > > As Nametag pointed out in an earlier post, women were denied equality with the failure of the ERA ammendment back in the 1970’s. > \*\* I’m curious, what is the ERA, and what significance would it have? Now I know women are not equal under the law, but I’m guessing that you actually think women have _less_ rights. What are these? ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/51 "2003-02-23T12:24:03Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Whack-aMole_ > It is arguable that women are not as good at war as men are. Very broadly speaking men are stronger than women and are more aggressive than women…just the sort of thing you want in your warriors. All people are different. I can guarantee you that I (a guy) would be a terrible soldier. I’m skinny, neverheld a gun in my life, wouldn’t want to fight. You could find thousands of women who would be better soldiers than I, but they wouldn’t be drafted, while if the circumstance arose, I would. And I’m sure I’m not the only guy around like this. > [@](#): > > I don’t know if what I’m about to suggest has any bearing on our notions of protecting women from things such as war but in a very real sense women are more valuable than men. I do not intend this to be offensive to women at all but in a very clinical sense they are the baby factories and traditionally the ones who raise the children. > > Men are far more disposable in this regard. A single male could theoretically impregnate hundreds of women. If it looks like your population is going to be seriously thinned in a war it is better to have more women left at the end to ensure there are future generations to be had. Have you had a look around lately. America is a big country with a growing population rate. There’s no risk of a birth crisis where everyone’s dying out and there aren’t enough women left to make babies. This makes sense when there’s twenty people living in a cave, not when there’s 280 000 000 living in a huge, modern country. It’s a moot point anyway, because I think the concept of a draft is ridiculous, and that no-one should be made to fight if they don’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/52 "2003-02-23T13:07:08Z")
As a woman, I can see no real reason why I shouldn’t be drafted as the man next to me could be. I’m healthy, I have no kids or dependents, I enjoy equal pay and employment opportunities (on paper). I am able body. I am an able mind. I find **Crafter\_Man 's** post cretinous, sexist, ill-informed, illogical and insulting. Arguably one of the least useful, least valid, least accurate posts ever to un-grace these boards. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@Blue\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_John)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/53 "2003-02-23T19:33:21Z")
Women would not be drafted because of our Victorian view that women are of more inherent worth than men. I can see good reasons for keeping women out of the military, the average woman is slower and weaker than the average man with less stamina, a worse aim, less resilient, more susceptible to injury and pain and so on. She is less able is all relevant ways. However, women are currently allowed into the military, they don’t even have to reach the standards reached by men entering the military meaning which inflates the number of women in the forces while reducing combat effectiveness. So, if women have greater equal opportunity to join the army when they want to be in it they should have at least equal responsibility and obligation to join the military when they don’t want to and to die for their country, their leaders and whatever they’re fighting for. Most of the arguments in this thread apply to keeping women out of the military completely as much as to keeping them out of the draft/selective service. It’s hypocritical to favour women being in the army when they choose to be and only when they choose to be, rights without responsibilities. The argument that women are needed for giving birth is laughable. Look at the birthrate. We could have twice as many babies with half as many women if that was necessary, and I’m not aware of a war in the modern world that has resulted in half the population of a nation, male, female or total population, being killed. For children and dependant there is no reason they should have their fathers conscripted ahead of their mothers, quite the opposite in fact. In short, we don’t need all these women for reproduction and the relatively small dent even the bloodiest of wars would put in the population could be easily compensated for and women are not need to raise children at all. Technology doesn’t come into it. If they were desperate enough to conscript they’d probably want more cheaper, which means sacrificing sophistication. In the event of a war society would have to “trim the fat”, become more efficient. Those in jobs that aren’t vital to society should be those conscripted, who are mostly women. People driving articulated lorries long distances, people keeping the sewers working, doing road works, electricians, plumbers, the police and fire brigade, all mostly male occupations. To put it simple, the only thing womens do better than men are gestate, lactate and give birth. Men are more important to the maintenance and advancement of society while women only donate the next generation to society. The birthrate speaks for itself, women aren’t doing that. Women are more expendable, it’s as simple as that. **Crafter\_Man** ’s post isn’t exactly perfect, but there’s no need to say it’s cretinous, sexist, ill-informed etc… He is partially right in that he cites pregnancy as a problem, which it has been in the American military. Whenever potential combat nears the rate of military pregnancies skyrockets. Obviously, the pregnant women aren’t sent near to combat. Women in the military shouldn’t be allowed to become pregnant, IMHO, they should have to take contraceptives. **susanann** , how do you think women are disadvantaged? I can’t see it myself, enlighten us. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/54 "2003-02-23T20:50:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*I find **Crafter\_Man 's** post cretinous, sexist, ill-informed, illogical and insulting. Arguably one of the least useful, least valid, least accurate posts ever to un-grace these boards. \*\* That’s because you and I live in different worlds, **istara**. I’m a research engineer, and most of my work is _for_ the military. I spend a great deal of time at a local Air Force base and talk with enlisted men and women on a daily basis. As a result I have acute understanding of their motivations and decision making processes. Another benefit is that I am in a position to see situations _from their perspective_. And I’m sorry to report that they don’t care about your idealistic, rose-colored world, **istara**. They only care about _objective truth_ and _what works_, and my earlier post simply reflected these realities. With all due respect, **istara** , these truths are foreign to you. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/55 "2003-02-23T23:36:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blue John \* > \*\* > **susanann** , how do you think women are disadvantaged? I can’t see it myself, enlighten us. \*\* I didnt say that women were “disadvantaged”. I said that women are not “equal” - different things. (I will withhold my own opinion at this time as to whether I think women are now disadvantaged - by not being equal ) It is a matter of opinion on whether or not women are “disadvantaged” under current law, and that is one of the reasons why the ERA did not pass. More to the point, some women did not want to be subject to the draft, and therefore did not vote to pass it. You can do your own research on the ERA to see all of the implications of making women equal - one implication of the ERA was specifically to subject women to the draft. If the ERA had passed, no law, no federal regulation, could draft “men” only - all laws and regulations had to be “sexless”. It would be unconstitutional to have a law requiring “males” to be registered for the draft. Hey, you guys did not want it, so why complain now that there is a war? Since the ERA did not pass, women cannot, and should not, be drafted. Phyllis Schaffley, at that time, was one of the major opponents of the ERA, She took the position that, in her opinion, women had actually had MORE “advantages” WITHOUT the ERA. Members of NOW, disagreed with her. Make up your own mind if no law in the United States could specify sex (it would be similar to how blacks, asians, jews, etc are now considered under United States law - no distinction, no preference, no discrimination, etc) . ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/56 "2003-02-24T00:24:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blue John \* > **To put it simple, the only thing womens do better than men are gestate, lactate and give birth. Men are more important to the maintenance and advancement of society while women only donate the next generation to society.** …Just out of curiosity… are you serious? ~mixie ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@Blue\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_John)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/57 "2003-02-24T14:53:28Z")
**susanann** , the lack of an ERA doesn’t make it impossible to draft women. Schlafly was right that Equal Rights would take away alot of female privelege. That doesn’t mean the ERA would have, though. It wouldn’t necessarily have been applied equally. The CRA wasn’t, after all. Yes, **mixie** , I’m serious. Why wouldn’t I be serious? Maybe women aren’t even better at [url=“[http://freebirth.com/milkmen.htm](http://freebirth.com/milkmen.htm)”]lactation\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@Blue\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_John)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/58 "2003-02-24T15:34:10Z")
[Oops.](http://freebirth.com/milkmen.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/59 "2003-02-24T15:36:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TTT \* > \*\*I realize you are all talking of the U.S. only, but you should know there are countries where women are also up to be drafted. In practice, it is true, this is not often put into effect. Sudan for example does not draft women except if they have medical knowledge. But as far as I know Israel does indeed equally draft women and men. \*\* I’m not sure if Israel is a fair example. They’re a very small country with a very small population, surrounded by enemies on every side (historically). _All_ wars they have been involved in have literally been wars for their very survival as a nation. Under such circumstances, ordinary attitudes get thrown out the window. This explains why the Soviet Army in WWII also had significant numbers of women in or near combat, including snipers. They very much perceived the conflict as a fight to the death. Women had never played ANY role in the Soviet or Imperial Russian military before that conflict, and really haven’t since. But the U.S. has never been involved in such a struggle. And we have a far larger population than Israel. Still, I’m with the camp that thinks women can and should be drafted for anything except combat. It’s easier to quickly make a combat soldier out of a man than a woman, for whatever reason. I don’t think it’s a huge stretch to say men _on average_ work in teams more readily, follow orders more quickly, and are physically stronger than women. Some people have claimed that modern war means just pushing buttons and pulling triggers. Not so. How many women could lift and load a 100 lb. artillery shell? How many could carry a 20 lb machine gun on a 10 mile forced march? Physical strength counts for a soldier in a lot more ways than just hand to hand combat. But even so, there are women who can drive a truck, perform surgery, fix weapons, fill procurement orders, etc. as well as any man can. So they should. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639/60 "2003-02-24T19:03:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blue John \* > \*\ ***susanann** , the lack of an ERA doesn’t make it impossible to draft women. > \*\*. \*\* I guess you are technically right, it would be "possible " to draft women(anything is possible) without giving women full equal citizenship rights - just as it was “possible” for the south to have drafted black slaves into their confederate army during the civil war. However, it would be immoral, unjust, unfair, dangerous, illogical, and make no sense at all to draft women - while at the same time denying women equal rights. * * * On the other hand, if the ERA “had” passed, it would be illegal, and totally impossible NOT to draft women - since no law or regulation could specify sex. * * * IMHO, this topic was already thoroughly discussed by all of America during the evaluation of the ERA ammendment, and it was decided by our country that women should not be subject to the draft. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-only-men-get-drafted-for-war/156639.md?page=4)