# Why orthopedic doctors paid so well? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 14, 2012, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860 "2012-05-14T07:40:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/21 "2012-05-15T16:45:01Z")
I would expect that demand is high. Consider a generation’s worth of fitness-obsessed Boomers and their sports injuries, now aging into serious joint problems. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/24 "2012-12-11T13:48:38Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > My wife and I were just discussing Orthopedic surgeons last night. Our feelings were that they are the only doctors who actually fix what ails you. Most of the time, when I go to a doctor I’m hoping they can discover what is wrong with me and that they happen to have a pill that will magically fix the problem. I am almost always disappointed. Sure, they will give me a salve or pill that might sort of help in the long run, they just can’t “fix” the problem. Orthopedic surgeons can generally fix the problems they find. It takes a lot of time, pain and rehab sometimes but they make that knee or hip work again in a noticeable way. I once dated a medical student who didn’t want to get serious because he knew he’d train elsewhere. Then he decided he’d do his residency in Houston, after all. But I’d moved on. Anyway, doing his rotations through different specialties, he got depressed because so many conditions can only be ameliorated. Then he spent time at the Shriners’ hospital–where kids could really be “fixed.” He’d found his specialty… ---
**Author:** ![Damfino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Damfino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damfino)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/25 "2012-12-11T23:04:17Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > I would think orthopedists also have to be physically stronger than most doctors. A neurosurgeon, for example, would need a very delicate touch and the ability to stand on their feet for hours on end. An orthopedist needs that AND the ability to wrestle bones back into place. You are mostly right. Nevertheless the central nervous system is entirely encased in bone and requires a lot of “carpentry” to expose what lies within., And to repair it afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/26 "2012-12-12T01:48:12Z")
A few years ago, several of the big biomedical implant (knees, hips, etc) manufacturers were found guilty of price fixing & kickbacks from ortho docs…as part of their sentencing, which included mega $$$ fines, they all had to open their books to be randomly audited by a group headed by former US Atty Gen John Ashcroft. It seems Zimmer, and 2-3 others, were paying Othopedic doc’s mega “fees” for consulting, when it turned out they did very little consulting (on the design of the next gen of implants) but oddly enough their hospital always selected the manufacturer who paid them the highest “consulting” fee. ps often these “consulting” fees far exceeded the sawbones salary cite: [http://lib.law.virginia.edu/Garrett/prosecution\_agreements/press\_release/Biomet.pdf](http://lib.law.virginia.edu/Garrett/prosecution_agreements/press_release/Biomet.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/27 "2012-12-12T01:52:57Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > A few years ago, several of the big biomedical implant (knees, hips, etc) manufacturers were found guilty of price fixing & kickbacks from ortho docs…as part of their sentencing, which included mega $$$ fines, they all had to open their books to be randomly audited by a group headed by former US Atty Gen John Ashcroft. > > It seems Zimmer, and 2-3 others, were paying Othopedic doc’s mega “fees” for consulting, when it turned out they did very little consulting (on the design of the next gen of implants) but oddly enough their hospital always selected the manufacturer who paid them the highest “consulting” fee. > > ps often these “consulting” fees far exceeded the sawbones salary > > cite: > > [http://lib.law.virginia.edu/Garrett/prosecution\_agreements/press\_release/Biomet.pdf](http://lib.law.virginia.edu/Garrett/prosecution_agreements/press_release/Biomet.pdf) BTW - Ashcroft was awarded this $52 million project despite that fact that it was never released for bidding. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/28 "2012-12-12T01:56:02Z")
It’s also worth mentioning that doctor salaries have to reflect that they don’t start really earning until they are 30 or even older (and it’s no coincidence that the specialties that have the longest residencies often pay the best). So the career span is 5-10 years shorter than a lot of the other options a highly talented, hard working individual had to chose from. You cut those 5-10 years off the END: you don’t lose the early years, but the later ones. So if a lawyer retires at 65 making $225,000 a year and a doctor retires making 300,000, it’s meaningful that that lawyer made that $225K for five extra years. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/29 "2012-12-12T02:12:42Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > And the supply is purposefully limited by the American Medical Association by deciding how many medical students there are every year; they are a very powerful trade union. This is incorrect; the supply is limited by the number of federally funded residency positions. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/30 "2012-12-12T02:21:50Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s also worth mentioning that doctor salaries have to reflect that they don’t start really earning until they are 30 or even older (and it’s no coincidence that the specialties that have the longest residencies often pay the best). So the career span is 5-10 years shorter than a lot of the other options a highly talented, hard working individual had to chose from. You cut those 5-10 years off the END: you don’t lose the early years, but the later ones. So if a lawyer retires at 65 making $225,000 a year and a doctor retires making 300,000, it’s meaningful that that lawyer made that $225K for five extra years. Forget lawyers. See [this graph](http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html) which compares the financial implications of starting to work as a UPS driver after high school vs going into medicine. ---
**Author:** ![tomcar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tomcar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomcar)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/31 "2012-12-12T03:19:38Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > This is incorrect; the supply is limited by the number of federally funded residency positions. Not quite. You are thinking doctors educated here… He was referring to doctors coming from other countries too. I work in an orthopedic surgical hospital and work closely with the surgeons. It not only is hard work… But not many people have the brain nor intellect. Surgeons earn their money. It’s the most complicated work with severe results. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/32 "2012-12-12T03:40:51Z")
> [@tomcar](#): > > Not quite. You are thinking doctors educated here… He was referring to doctors coming from other countries too. > > I work in an orthopedic surgical hospital and work closely with the surgeons. It not only is hard work… But not many people have the brain nor intellect. Surgeons earn their money. It’s the most complicated work with severe results. Im not aware that the AMA has anything to do with “controlling doctor supply”. I’m not even a member. Licensing is through the USMLE which is sponsored by state medical boards. USCDiver, MD ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/33 "2012-12-12T03:45:45Z")
> [@tomcar](#): > > Not quite. You are thinking doctors educated here… He was referring to doctors coming from other countries too. Obviously not, because he said the AMA controlled supply by controlling the number of medical students educated every year. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/34 "2012-12-12T04:02:31Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > Forget lawyers. See [this graph](http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html) which compares the financial implications of starting to work as a UPS driver after high school vs going into medicine. In what world can high school graduates walk into a $60k/year job? Or somehow work double time at a job like that to earn $120k/year? And why only compare earnings up to age 45? I call bullshit. **Average** income for people with just a high school diploma is $21k. Those with full-time jobs and a high school diploma earn $34k. Yeah, high doctor incomes are countered by med school debt and a decade of time spent in school. But that article is total nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/35 "2012-12-12T04:14:42Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > In what world can high school graduates walk into a $60k/year job? Or somehow work double time at a job like that to earn $120k/year? And why only compare earnings up to age 45? I call bullshit. **Average** income for people with just a high school diploma is $21k. Those with full-time jobs and a high school diploma earn $34k. Yeah, high doctor incomes are countered by med school debt and a decade of time spent in school. But that article is total nonsense. I’m confused, are you saying UPS drivers can’t make the amount reported there? Or that you need advanced education to become a UPS or other truck driver? The graph ends at age 45 because that’s how long it takes the doctor to overtake the theoretical UPS driver. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/36 "2012-12-12T04:55:21Z")
I’m saying that the average (or even exceptional) fresh-out-of-high-school graduate doesn’t get a $60k UPS driver job. Advanced education isn’t an actual job requirement, but that doesn’t mean they hire every 18 year old who managed to graduate. I’d be willing to bet that the actual people hired as UPS drivers have a decade or three of work experience working for much lower wages, and maybe some extra education as well. Even with a magical $60k salary from age 18, the doctor out-earns that at age 36 going by the chart in the link. There’s absolutely no way that there are 18 year old UPS drivers earning $120k, which is the numbers required to have greater earnings than the doctor up to age 45. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/37 "2012-12-12T05:57:07Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > Forget lawyers. See [this graph](http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html) which compares the financial implications of starting to work as a UPS driver after high school vs going into medicine. That article is chocked full of complete crap (and about the most insulting article that I’ve read in a long time). Clearly someone wants to make it seem like doctors don’t earn as much as people think and that they’re getting ripped off somehow by having to obtain an education before they start earning those big bucks. From first hand knowledge, UPS drivers don’t earn that much around here. AND, the people working pipelines aren’t exactly “unskilled labor” unless you want to drive a 45 ton piece of equipment on a 45 degree angle over 6 inches of solid ice. Face it, doctors earn an excessively high wage yet they are forever moaning about the expenses that they have to put into their business. They are the most ignorant business people going. EVERY self employed person has to carry insurances, cover on going education and the expenses of running what ever their service is (including buying equipment). There was a time that doctors walked on water in the public eye and so could demand high salaries with few questions… (probably about the time that they officially split off from being barbers). That time is passed. Any doctor who feels they aren’t paid enough is more than free to go get a job on the pipeline and see just how long they last there. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/38 "2012-12-12T06:00:52Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > In what world can high school graduates walk into a $60k/year job? Or somehow work double time at a job like that to earn $120k/year? And why only compare earnings up to age 45? Clearly math and reality are not the DR/Author’s strong suit. Because everyone knows the way to make a $30k/yr job really a $60k/yr job is to just work overtime… because your employer is all cool with stuff like that from their “unskilled” laborers. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860/39 "2012-12-12T14:08:32Z")
As noted, the A.M.A. is not a “union” and does not control the number of slots in medical school. Also: > [@Smeghead](#): > > Doctors…often spend a decade or so working for little to no money in the early days of their careers. is not quite accurate either - once you’re out in practice the pay jumps markedly over residency salary, though most docs still have to take care of heavy debt for education and other expenses. Physicians are certainly paid well, though if you figure in debt, expenses for things like malpractice insurance and hours worked, it’s clear that medicine is not the unfettered financial bonanza that some believe it to be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-orthopedic-doctors-paid-so-well/621860.md?page=1)