# Why PIN Number and not PI Number? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 20, 2007, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819 "2007-09-20T01:07:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/41 "2007-09-20T18:38:51Z")
[QUOTE=Keeve] Remember those commercials in some unnamed exotic land where the tourists’ car broke down and some native kid offered to show them the way to Etiem. “Etiem fix! Etiem make it better!” [/QUOTE] Actually, it was “Etiem fix everything!” To this day, there are certain people in my social circle who can’t help but quote that whenever a trip to “Etiem” is necessary. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bstenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/54ee81/32.png) [@bstenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bstenger)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/42 "2007-09-20T19:46:04Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Ah. Found it - [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8848094&postcount=59](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8848094&postcount=59) [/QUOTE] Sometimes dictionaries are just [wrong](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abiogenesis). I’ll stick with the OED as the gold standard: > [@](#): > > acronym > > /akrnim/ > > • noun a word formed from the initial letters of other words (e.g. laser, Aids). > > — ORIGIN from Greek akron ‘end, tip’ + onoma ‘name’. > **[Oxford Languages](https://languages.oup.com/)** > > The home of language data ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/43 "2007-09-20T19:56:22Z")
[QUOTE=bstenger] Sometimes dictionaries are just [wrong](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abiogenesis). [/quote] I give up. What’s wrong with those definitions of abiogenesis? > [@](#): > > I’ll stick with the OED as the gold standard: > [Oxford Languages - The home of language data](http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/acronym?view=uk) Sometimes dictionaries fall behind actual usage. The solution is to turn to a newer and more up-to-date dictionary. If you go to [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) and look up acronym, you’ll find this: > [@](#): > > Free On-line Dictionary of Computing - Cite This Source - Share This: > acronym jargon > An identifier formed from some of the letters (often the initials) of a phrase and used as an abbreviation. This dictionary contains a great many acronyms; see the contents page for a list. > See also TLA. (1995-03-15) And what happens when one sees TLA? > [@](#): > > /T-L-A/ n. [Three-Letter Acronym] 1. Self-describing abbreviation for a species with which computing terminology is infested. 2. Any confusing acronym. Examples include MCA, FTP, SNA, CPU, MMU, SCCS, DMU, FPU, NNTP, TLA. People who like this looser usage argue that not all TLAs have three letters, just as not all four-letter words have four letters. One also hears of `ETLA' (Extended Three-Letter Acronym, pronounced /ee tee el ay/) being used to describe four-letter acronyms. The term `SFLA’ (Stupid Four-Letter Acronym) has also been reported. See also YABA. Modern practice has changed the meaning of the term. The dictionaries _will_ change to reflect usage. Guaranteed. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/44 "2007-09-20T20:04:26Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] I give up. What’s wrong with those definitions of abiogenesis? Sometimes dictionaries fall behind actual usage. The solution is to turn to a newer and more up-to-date dictionary. If you go to [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) and look up acronym, you’ll find this: And what happens when one sees TLA? Modern practice has changed the meaning of the term. The dictionaries _will_ change to reflect usage. Guaranteed. [/QUOTE] Bullshit. Some “dictionaries” are sloppy, in that they simply accept misuse as proper use. This perpetuates the problem. And using “[Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com)” as support for any argument is about as persuasive as using Wikipedia to support an argument. But I know you hate prescriptive grammar in all its aspects, including word meanings, so I won’t bandy words on the subject beyond this brief post. For, of course, at the heart of the matter, you are accurate about one thing: what people say is rarely based upon what is prescribed to be correct, and with time, misuse can become accepted use. But only idiots say PIN Number, or ATM Machine. (ducking the brickbats of the “idiots”) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bstenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/54ee81/32.png) [@bstenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bstenger)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/45 "2007-09-20T20:08:11Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] I give up. What’s wrong with those definitions of abiogenesis? [/quote] It’s almost never referred to as a discredited theory or synonymous with spontaneous generation. In modern biology, abiogenesis has a different definition altogether. [QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Sometimes dictionaries fall behind actual usage. The solution is to turn to a newer and more up-to-date dictionary. If you go to [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) and look up acronym, you’ll find this: [/quote] [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) doesn’t seem to be very up-to-date given its definition of _abiogenesis_. Are you accusing the OED of not keeping up to date with word definitions? [QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Modern practice has changed the meaning of the term. The dictionaries _will_ change to reflect usage. Guaranteed. [/QUOTE] Or give definitions that aren’t part of the vernacular or don’t agree with more revered dictionaries. Guaranteed. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/46 "2007-09-20T20:29:26Z")
The OP of this thread… [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=408935&highlight=redundonym](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=408935&highlight=redundonym) …was trying to start a Wikipedia page for his own invented term “Redundonym”. He [failed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redundonym), but the thread has a bunch of good ones, if you’re interested. (For the record, the Wiki page that ended up winning out was [RAS Syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAS_syndrome).) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/47 "2007-09-20T21:00:01Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Bullshit. Some “dictionaries” are sloppy, in that they simply accept misuse as proper use. This perpetuates the problem. And using “[Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com)” as support for any argument is about as persuasive as using Wikipedia to support an argument. [/QUOTE] All modern dictionaries are descriptionistic in usage. They collect cites of how people actually use the language and when a usage looks to be permanent they include it in the dictionary. This does not make it right or not right. That’s a different subject. Virtually every single word in the English language (except for a few technical definitions) has the majority of its meanings arise from common usage adding to the original meaning. This _is_ the English language. There is no part of English that exists outside of this historic context. I’m sorry that you can’t accept this, just as I’m sorry that you seem never to have made any effort to learn about the history or the nuances of the English language. Or for that matter that you don’t even seem to understand the function of [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com), which merely reproduces the definitions of other dictionaries. Nor do you seem to understand that many different dictionaries exist because no two address the language in the same way, no two are equally current, no two have identical subsets of specialization, and no two will have exactly the same total set of modern meanings for words. When you learn what a dictionary is and how it functions, you may be able to add more than mere invective into a discussion of English usage. > [@bstenger](#): > > It’s almost never referred to as a discredited theory or synonymous with spontaneous generation. In modern biology, abiogenesis has a different definition altogether. So your point is that dictionaries are wrong because they haven’t caught up to modern usage for one word, but their not having caught up to modern usage for another word makes me wrong? You may want to rethink this argument. > [@](#): > > Are you accusing the OED of not keeping up to date with word definitions? You bet I am. Redoing definitions to account for modern usage is a hugely expensive and time-consuming process. The OED last did this in full for the second edition in 1989. Although there have been some continuing updating of the online dictionary, the full third edition will not be available for many years. I don’t think they’re even announced a target date. That’s why I keep insisting that you have to check the newest dictionaries for the latest usage. Perhaps if I can get you to understand this you can explain to **DSYoungEsq** ---
**Author:** ![bstenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/54ee81/32.png) [@bstenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bstenger)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/48 "2007-09-20T21:55:43Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] So your point is that dictionaries are wrong because they haven’t caught up to modern usage for one word, but their not having caught up to modern usage for another word makes me wrong? You may want to rethink this argument. [/quote] You may want to re-think making straw man arguments. My point in telling you what was wrong with [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com)’s definition of abiogenesis was to answer your question, “What’s wrong with those definitions of abiogenesis?”. My original point was to show that some dictionaries give definitions that are just plain, wrong, inaccurate, or non-reflective of what’s used in the vernacular. Using [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) for a definition of ‘acronym’ when it clearly got ‘abiogenesis’ doesn’t necessarily make you wrong, but it doesn’t exactly say much for the reliability of [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com). [QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] You bet I am. Redoing definitions to account for modern usage is a hugely expensive and time-consuming process. The OED last did this in full for the second edition in 1989. Although there have been some continuing updating of the online dictionary, the full third edition will not be available for many years. I don’t think they’re even announced a target date. That’s why I keep insisting that you have to check the newest dictionaries for the latest usage. Perhaps if I can get you to understand this you can explain to **DSYoungEsq** [/QUOTE] You can pm other members of this board if you’d like something explained to someone. I’m betting when the OED does come out with a new edition, ‘acronym’ won’t reflect [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com)’s inaccurate definition. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/49 "2007-09-20T22:25:18Z")
[QUOTE=bstenger] I’m betting when the OED does come out with a new edition, ‘acronym’ won’t reflect [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com)’s inaccurate definition. [/QUOTE] I’ll take that bet in a second. And stop calling it [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com)’s definition. It’s just a meta-search engine. I quite clearly labeled that definition as coming from the “Free On-line Dictionary of Computing.” Calling it [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com)’s definition is as accurate as saying that your false cites are [Straightdope.com](http://Straightdope.com)’s definition. Your inability to understand that basic reality of the site destroys any credibility you have in critiquing it. ---
**Author:** ![Jayrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Jayrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayrot)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/50 "2007-09-20T22:42:53Z")
I’m firmly with you on this one, **Exapno Mapcase**. I don’t have time to compose a meaningful contribution to the discussion at the moment, but I just wanted you to know that you’re not arguing into a void. Btw, IAAL. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/51 "2007-09-20T22:47:25Z")
I call it the money machine, and use my access code. But, I would not recommend that for anyone else. Tris ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/52 "2007-09-20T23:07:23Z")
[QUOTE=Jayrot] I’m firmly with you on this one, **Exapno Mapcase**. I don’t have time to compose a meaningful contribution to the discussion at the moment, but I just wanted you to know that you’re not arguing into a void. Btw, IAAL. [/QUOTE] I’m with **Exapno** too. The fact is that spoken English is a lot more ambiguous than it seems. There is a lot of redundancy built into the language so your brain can make sense of it. This can be tested by recording normal conversation, breaking up the recording into one-word pieces, playing the one-word pieces at random to an experimental subject, and having him or her try to guess what the words are. Most people get a significant percentage wrong. ---
**Author:** ![bstenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/54ee81/32.png) [@bstenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bstenger)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/53 "2007-09-20T23:15:37Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] I’ll take that bet in a second. [/quote] Why? What reason do you have to believe that that one dictionary definition you found will be one that the OED will agree with in its next edition? [QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Your inability to understand that basic reality of the site destroys any credibility you have in critiquing it. [/QUOTE] That’s nonsense and I think you know it. For all intents and purposes, it is a definition that [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) is giving. Me critiquing the source as first party or third party is irrelevant to the fact that the only definitions given by the site for _abiogenesis_ are inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/54 "2007-09-20T23:33:44Z")
> [@](#): > > PI Number According to [IMDb](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071042/trivia), Jim Rockford’s number was 555-2368. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/55 "2007-09-20T23:45:11Z")
Dictionary: n, A record of a moment in the history of a language, often confused by pedants for a rule book. ## Tris: “Language is not an abstract construction of the learned, or of dictionary makers, but is something arising out of the work, needs, ties, joys, affections, tastes, of long generations of humanity, and has its bases broad and low, close to the ground.” ~ Noah Webster ~ ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/56 "2007-09-21T02:40:44Z")
[QUOTE=bstenger] Why? What reason do you have to believe that that one dictionary definition you found will be one that the OED will agree with in its next edition? [/QUOTE] Already answered in post #47. > [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > All modern dictionaries are descriptionistic in usage. They collect cites of how people actually use the language and when a usage looks to be permanent they include it in the dictionary. Thanks to those who wrote in support. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![bstenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/54ee81/32.png) [@bstenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bstenger)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/57 "2007-09-21T03:01:39Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Already answered in post #47. [/QUOTE] Okay, I guess I’ll have to rephrase to get a meaningful answer from you: Why? What reason do you have to believe strongly enough to “take that bet in a second” that that one dictionary definition you found is from a dictionary that collected cites of how people actually use the word ‘acronym’ and that that usage looks to be permanent and that the OED will follow suit in its next edition? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819/58 "2007-09-21T03:17:58Z")
Because I pay attention to the language. The word acronym is used by everyone at all levels of formality. The word initialism is a pedantic rarity in normal conversation, in internet speech, in newspaper articles, and in books. (It’s not even in my spell checker!) Anybody compiling cites for a dictionary can find not a few but literally millions of examples of acronym’s everyday use as a collection of initial letters, word-making or not. (You might even remember the definition of TLA, three letter acronym, that I posted earlier. That alone would be enough for a definition and it is but a minor subset of the overall use of acronym.) Proof? Here’s a one-click proof. Enter acronym into Google. There are enough examples of acronym in the sense I cite on the first page (of 50 hits) to make any lexicographer’s life easy. That’s it. That’s all it takes. You just have to know how dictionaries work and keep your eyes and ears tuned to the way that words are used by real people in real communications. Dictionaries always lag years behind contemporary usage, but they will eventually catch up. Some already have. The OED will. It is not a bet. It is a foregone conclusion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-pin-number-and-not-pi-number/419819.md?page=2)