# Why political forgiveness and cooperation won't be coming any time soon **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 23, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296 "2021-01-23T17:14:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/1 "2021-01-23T17:14:06Z")
I see calls for forgiveness and cooperation all over right wing media and from Congresscritters themselves, and I am going to call “bullshit”. I see no proposals to make concessions from those asking for(if not outright demanding) “cooperation”, so what is actually being asked for is capitulation. Forgiveness? Who among them have said what they want to be forgiven for? They seem to mistake the word “forgive” with the word “absolve”-they want a blanket pardon that doesn’t discuss specifics, and in my opinion none of them have come close to deserving that. If individuals among them come forward with sincere apologetic requests those requests should be looked at generously, but this doesn’t have to(and shouldn’t) be an “all or nothing” deal. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2021, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/2 "2021-01-23T19:54:44Z")
I figured that any of these people asking for unity should first be asked if they think Biden won. If they still think Trump won, fuck them. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/3 "2021-01-24T13:08:12Z")
Forgiveness depends on repentance - and genuninely understanding and acknowledging the fault involved. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/4 "2021-01-25T07:21:43Z")
I’m out of the loop here, can you link me to a couple examples of these calls for cooperation? Are you talking about requests for federal blanket pardons for the 1/6 Capitol Riot? Quick searches for “forgiveness” are mostly irrelevant, the only political results I’m seeing are related to Biden’s student debt thing. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/5 "2021-01-25T09:30:44Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I’m out of the loop here, can you link me to a couple examples of these calls for cooperation? Are you talking about requests for federal blanket pardons for the 1/6 Capitol Riot? No, their comments specifically that Democrats should be “uniting” the country and that impeachment would “drive a wedge”. [This link](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/sarahmimms/republicans-object-biden-win-unity-capitol-attack) is a summary of some of the tweets – note that these views have not only been expressed via tweets, but also statements in the Capitol and on political news. This is just a good start to get the gist. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/6 "2021-01-25T17:50:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I see no proposals to make concessions from those asking for(if not outright demanding) “cooperation”, so what is actually being asked for is capitulation. Having read Mimm’s article for _BuzzFeed_, it looks like they are asking for absolution, not capitulation. You said they were confusing “forgive” with “absolve” so I think I agree with you, but I’m not sure where you get capitulation from. I don’t particularly care for a _drawn out_ parliamentary crusade against Trump and the 147 Republicans. If we’re going to censure and disqualify them from future elections, do it _quickly_. I don’t really want to defend them, but even more I don’t want the next four years to be dominated by political division. We have other things to do, you know? Things that are more important than punishing seditionists for the sake of punishing seditionists. And if it turns out that a significant proportion of the population thinks the 1/6 EC vote count objections and 1/6 Capitol Riot were _patriotic_, or that Biden isn’t the legitimate president (I’ll have to look up polls, I’m guessing it’s significant, between 10-20% of the population), then I’m sorry, you can’t just say they’re all evil enemies of the state. Even if you are justified, that way lies violence and civil war. If the alternative is some measure of absolution, if you have to swallow your pride, so be it. Some people will hold a grudge against Democrats for this election until the day they die, that can’t be helped. But I think most people who might be sympathetic to a coup right now aren’t hardcore Trump supporters. I think if we focus on the pandemic and other more immediate and local-affecting issues, the threat of sedition and civil war will fade. I can’t seem to find the thread, but I had previously written about the circumstances under which I would personally steal food from a grocer: “I wouldn’t steal food because of some anger about how some people are rich while I’m poor, I would steal food because I’m starving and can’t afford it.” I think if you address people’s needs, most of the unrest - and populist extremism - will disappear. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/7 "2021-01-25T19:08:06Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Having read Mimm’s article for _BuzzFeed_ , it looks like they are asking for absolution, not capitulation. You said they were confusing “forgive” with “absolve” so I think I agree with you, but I’m not sure where you get capitulation from. Asking for absolution while not acknowledging wrongdoing or stating what is going to change going forwards _is_ asking for capitulation. Many republicans are _still_ not admitting that a fair election took place. And they are describing the events of Jan 6 as if a bunch of aliens landed, not something that many Republicans had, and continue to, incite. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t particularly care for a _drawn out_ parliamentary crusade against Trump and the 147 Republicans. I don’t believe in any kind of crusade, I believe in the rule of law and it should take as long as it needs. Fortunately, in the case of the Trump trial at least, most estimates are that it would be over in a few days, as the critical details are all out in the open. > [@Max\_S](#): > > And if it turns out that a significant proportion of the population thinks the 1/6 EC vote count objections and 1/6 Capitol Riot were _patriotic_ , or that Biden isn’t the legitimate president (I’ll have to look up polls, I’m guessing it’s significant, between 10-20% of the population), then I’m sorry, you can’t just say they’re all evil enemies of the state. Who did? The point is, tens of millions have been mislead by the president and many senior Republicans. I don’t completely give those supporters a pass – adults have no excuse for not trying to seek out legitimate news sources and fact-based reporting. But no, I wouldn’t call them “evil”. But sure, anyone _involved in the coup_, whether we’re talking storming the capitol, “find me 11 thousand votes” and knowingly spreading misinformation should be held accountable. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I think if we focus on the pandemic and other more immediate and local-affecting issues, the threat of sedition and civil war will fade. Personally I think holding people accountable is important to reducing the risk of this happening again. That’s how law and order works. Trying to unite while no-one has been held accountable or admitted wrongdoing is how being bullied works. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/8 "2021-01-25T19:13:44Z")
Ignoring sedition feeds it. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/9 "2021-01-25T19:31:43Z")
nvm I’ll try again ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/10 "2021-01-25T19:33:20Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I think if you address people’s needs, most of the unrest - and populist extremism - will disappear. > > ~Max I would love to believe this is true, but the movement that made Trump possible arose during an eight-year economic expansion under Obama, and many of the Capitol rioters are reported to have been successful professionals. Their beliefs and actions aren’t being driven by economic deprivation. Yes, there are glaring failures in (and genuine grievances with) our society, but there always have been, and until the last few years they didn’t trigger millions of Americans into believing alternate realities and fascist fantasies. You can’t punish all of them, but you have to punish the people pushing that agenda. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/11 "2021-01-25T19:42:53Z")
If you’re looking for logic in what exactly conservatives want in terms of “unifying” right now, you won’t find it, because that’s not the point. The point is that: 1. Democrats spent 4 years decrying Trump’s divisiveness, and 2. Biden’s inauguration speech talked about unifying the country, therefore 3. Anything Democrats do that Republicans don’t like is _ **liberal hypocrisy** _ That’s it. It’s people yelling at clouds, trying to score political points. Biden cancels the Keystone XL which Republicans don’t like, it’s “Well look at Mr. Unity now!” Congress impeaches an obviously impeachable act its, “Looks like Trump is living rent-free in Democrat’s heads.” It’s all nonsense that nobody should take seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/12 "2021-01-25T19:48:23Z")
Indeed. I once read that there are a significant number of Islamic terrorists who aren’t impoverished, but rather, very wealthy, privileged and well-off before their joined their respective terrorist groups. A great deal of human grievances have nothing to do with money or well-being. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/13 "2021-01-25T20:01:55Z")
For a historical perspective, we tried unity with the traitors of the Civil War, and that gave us a hundred years of a false peace where they disenfranchised and killed Americans who would oppose them. We’re still fighting the same injustices. Justice is necessary for true peace, and true repentance is necessary for forgiveness. We can’t have unity with those who have and continue to commit injustices against us. Here’s how I’d get unity: a “truth and reconciliation” commission, where those who have committed sedition and other injustices and be thoroughly questioned, with the understanding that the President will pardon those who answer truthfully and completely. I don’t expect that to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/14 "2021-01-25T20:08:00Z")
Problem is, I guarantee that Trumpers who consider Obama worse than Trump (yes, they do feel that way) will consider this a ‘first strike’ since they will point out that Trump never had a Truth and Reconciliation Committee for those who were ‘guilty of supporting Obama.’ They will then consider Trump to be magnanimous and Biden to be vindictive. Therein lies the problem: One side’s second strike is always considered by the other to be a first strike. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/15 "2021-01-25T20:40:45Z")
No, the problem is that one side is living in an apeshit paranoid alternate reality. ---
**Author:** ![Dinoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de0a6/32.png) [@Dinoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinoguy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2021, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/16 "2021-01-31T00:32:26Z")
Biden means well, but I don’t think unity is coming soon - for one thing, in connection with white supremacy, is the old concept of social Darwinism. Don’t know if that’s in the mind of Republicans, but it sure seems so. They have power and don’t want to give it up. “The best, the strongest should rule. We’re the best. Libs are a bunch of weak ninnys.” Or something like that. Many see Trump as strong, Biden as weak. Maybe with time and a change of attitudes they will see the light. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/17 "2021-01-31T20:06:48Z")
If the Republicans confess their sins, I’d have something to forgive. Let’s see them acknowledge: - That Biden and Harris won the election, fair and square - That they knew that all along, and either lied about it, or acquiesced silently while their colleagues and their friends at Fox News, and of course a certain ex-President, did the lying for them - That if not sooner, they should have acknowledged Biden’s win once the Electoral College voted, and should have, as a party, condemned Trump’s efforts to continue to stir up resistance - That they promise to leave behind the culture of lies and demonization that have dominated Republican politics since the rise of Rush and Newt. Then we can talk about forgiveness. But no forgiveness without confession and repentance. If they are the good Christians that practically all of them claim to be, they should understand this. (Narrator: they’re not, and they won’t.) ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2021, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/18 "2021-01-31T22:36:19Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Their beliefs and actions aren’t being driven by economic deprivation. Not only economic needs, but yes: I think Trump-flavored populism can be sustained only in the face of pre-existing unrest/dissatisfaction. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2021, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/19 "2021-01-31T22:42:32Z")
I don’t think there’s widespread religious devotion to Trump. I’ve heard it said that way but I always assumed it was hyperbole, not literally “religious” devotion. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2021, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/20 "2021-01-31T23:04:39Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Asking for absolution while not acknowledging wrongdoing or stating what is going to change going forwards _is_ asking for capitulation. I don’t get it. Republicans are asking who to capitulate on what issue? > [@Mijin](#): > > I don’t believe in any kind of crusade, I believe in the rule of law and it should take as long as it needs. Fortunately, in the case of the Trump trial at least, most estimates are that it would be over in a few days, as the critical details are all out in the open. What I mean is we can’t devote multiple legislative days to try Trump and each of the 147 Republicans for their actions on the floor. I mean, it’s important, and rule of law is important, but trying _everyone_ with all due process is _less_ important than everything else Congress is supposed to do. > [@Mijin](#): > > But sure, anyone _involved in the coup_ , whether we’re talking storming the capitol, “find me 11 thousand votes” and knowingly spreading misinformation should be held accountable. I have nothing against criminal trials, so federal/state charges of incitement to riot or actual riot are fine by me. Knowingly spreading misinformation, not so much. I think there are a couple of state laws criminalizing misinformation but I haven’t read them and I’m not sure how those work given incorporation of the First Amendment. ~Max [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296.md?page=2)