# Why political forgiveness and cooperation won't be coming any time soon **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 23, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296 "2021-01-23T17:14:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2021, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/81 "2021-02-03T23:46:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Both can’t be true. But they can. Unlikely for Democrats to stay in power [nationwide], impossible for Democrats to stay in power [at the state level] (because Democrats are not currently in power at the state level). > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Fight like hell? How? - not appointing Republican congressmen/women to committee chairs - which is normal considering that the Democrats control Congress - not cooperating with Republicans on legislation (?) (don’t you need their votes?) - discounting opinions of people who question the 2020 election out of hand (?) (don’t you need their votes, too? won’t that lead to unrest?) - ??? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/82 "2021-02-04T00:03:42Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > But they can. Unlikely for Democrats to stay in power [nationwide], impossible for Democrats to stay in power [at the state level] (because Democrats are not currently in power at the state level). …okay, just a terminology mismatch on my part. Understood. > [@Max\_S](#): > > How? By beating them at every opportunity. Fighting voter suppression. I’m not sure what you aren’t understanding here? > [@Max\_S](#): > > not appointing Republican congressmen/women to committee chairs - **which is normal** considering that the Democrats control Congress Things aren’t “normal”. They haven’t been for a while. > [@Max\_S](#): > > not cooperating with Republicans on legislation (?) (don’t **you** need their votes?) I don’t need their votes. I don’t live in America. > [@Max\_S](#): > > discounting opinions of people who question the 2020 election out of hand (?) (don’t you need their votes, too? **won’t that lead to unrest?)** Yes we should discount those opinions because those opinions weren’t founded in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/83 "2021-02-04T00:34:32Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > By beating them at every opportunity. Fighting voter suppression. I’m not sure what you aren’t understanding here? You are approaching something tangible. But “fighting voter suppression” (in court) will not be very effective because, thanks to President Trump, the courts are stacked against you. From the Supremes down to district level. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Things aren’t “normal”. They haven’t been for a while. What I _meant_ is that _normally_, when a political party controls Congress, members of that party will chair all of the Congressional committees. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I don’t need their votes. I don’t live in America. Don’t you need their votes _to pass meaningful legislation_? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Yes we should discount those opinions because those opinions weren’t founded in reality. And try to sustain a democracy where a perpetual 30-40% of the population doesn’t trust elections? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/84 "2021-02-04T00:36:28Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I mean yes, there are some people who hate government because of equal employment opportunities cutting into their former privilege or something. Some are neo-Nazis or white supremacists, but I don’t think the average insurrectionist falls into that category. The average insurrectionist. There’s a phrase you never heard prior to the Trump so-called administration. Anyway, you said if we only met their needs, most of that would go away. I wondered, specifically, “what needs?” I see there is nothing specific you have in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/85 "2021-02-04T00:50:42Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I wondered, specifically, “what needs?” I see there is nothing specific you have in mind. That may be what you were thinking, but respectfully, that’s not your most recent question. > [@bobot](#): > > Well what needs, in general, need to be met I can’t guess what specific needs must be met for a specific person unless I know what’s going on with that specific person. At the very least I would have to be able to talk with them. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/86 "2021-02-04T01:13:48Z")
Good lord. I asked about “in general” because your reply to my question about your comment was “Dunno”. Nevermind. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/87 "2021-02-04T01:19:51Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You are approaching something tangible. …I mean, I’m not writing a thesis here. I’ve already outlined the core of what needs to be done. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If you oppose MAGA then **you need to be acting now to keep them out of power in every conceivable possible way**. Governorships. The Mayor. The Sheriff. City Council. School boards. > [@Max\_S](#): > > But “fighting voter suppression” (in court) will not be very effective because, thanks to President Trump, the courts are stacked against you. From the Supremes down to district level. What part of “fight like hell” are you not understanding? Yes the odds are stacked against you. They control the courts, the control the states, control of the Senate and the House is on a knife edge. I get that. But you’ve got one side that has no intention of bipartisanship, that will lie, cheat, steal and gaslight to retain power. You can either look to co-operate with them (which would mean they would steamroll right over the top of you) or fight like hell. Even if the odds are against you. For many people in America: the poor, the marginalized, black communities, they are literally **fighting for their lives**. One of the last thing Trump did on his way out the door was roll back protections for LGBT people. If Trump had won again he would have rolled back more. If the Democrats hadn’t taken Georgia then they would be stacking the courts even further. They had to fight like hell, fight against the odds to achieve both of those things. And they can’t stop fighting now because the other side is never going to stop either. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Don’t you need their votes _to pass meaningful legislation_ ? I’m not American. I don’t need anybody’s vote. > [@Max\_S](#): > > And try to sustain a democracy where a perpetual 30-40% of the population doesn’t trust elections? You cannot **sustain a democracy** if you pander to 30-40% of people **who do not want a democracy**. **Even if it leads to unrest.** You fight like hell to keep them out of power. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/88 "2021-02-04T01:23:56Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > The people that breached the Capitol on Jan 6th are all going to be in for a world of hurt, legally speaking…and it’s already started for them. And they are going to round up everyone and follow the money and get the organizers…they’ve already made several connections between the militia groups and the political and fundraising groups. I read that it’s going to be the biggest, most comprehensive investigation since 9/11 —- . I think the near certainty of twenty years in federal prison might be a strong deterrent to some of these patriots. Yes. While the 9/11 attacks were frightening, they were never an existential threat to the country. The insurrectionists and their ilk are. For better or worse, the U.S. has a large and well-funded security apparatus. It is going to be brought to bear against the clear threat. It’s not the “deep state”; it’s simply the state. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/89 "2021-02-04T03:00:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But you’ve got one side that has no intention of bipartisanship, that will lie, cheat, steal and gaslight to retain power. You can either look to co-operate with them (which would mean they would steamroll right over the top of you) I don’t think this is necessarily true, especially not the last part. Cooperating with Republicans does not mean letting them write the whole law to their liking. Pandering to some Republican concerns does not mean pandering to all of them. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m not American. I don’t need anybody’s vote. Do you _want_ America to pass meaningful legislation? If so, wouldn’t you need Republican votes in order to achieve that goal? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > 30-40% of people **who do not want a democracy**. I don’t think most of the people who question the 2020 election want to do away with democracy. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/90 "2021-02-04T03:10:53Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t think most of the people who question the 2020 election want to do away with democracy. Unfortunately, if they’re so misinformed and detached from reality that they can’t tell that “questioning the election” is a bunch of fact-free bullshit, then they are not all that different, in functional terms, from people who do want to do away with democracy. The more deluded idiots you’ve got, the fewer consciously committed anti-democracy ideologues you need. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/91 "2021-02-04T08:53:13Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t think this is necessarily true, especially not the last part. …I mean you just finished telling me that you wouldn’t be able to do much against voter suppression because the republicans had stacked the courts. Do you not see the disconnect here? When the republicans have power they either move forward with their agenda or block everything else. It’s how they stacked the courts. It’s why Garland was denied a hearing because it was “too close to the election” but Barrett got seated even while the american people were voting. They ignored the deficit while trump & Co added trillions. But now Biden is president it’s time to close the purse strings. 400,000 americans died on their watch. I don’t think you could show me more than a handful of times they have negotiated in good faith in the last 12 years. Why assume things would be different now? > [@Max\_S](#): > > Do you _want_ America to pass meaningful legislation? If so, wouldn’t you need Republican votes in order to achieve that goal? What we have learned since Obama is that the republicans, almost universally, cannot be treated in good faith. The ones that can, like Walsh that I quoted from earlier, have already left. From Walsh today: > [@Walsh](#): > > Exactly 1 year ago tonight, I stood in an Iowa school cafeteria in front of 4,000 Republicans. I told them we needed a President who didn’t lie every time he opened his mouth. They booed me & jeered me. I told them we needed a President who didn’t believe he was above the law. 1/ > > They swore at me & yelled at me. I told them we needed a President who was decent, not cruel. They reacted with rage & shouted me down. This went on for 15 minutes. Eventually those 4,000 Iowa Republicans booed me out of that school cafeteria. 2/ > > I guess I always knew my primary challenge to Trump was hopeless. But that night 1 yr ago at the Iowa Caucuses proved it for certain. I ran into the cult that night. And one year and another impeachment and one pandemic and one insurrection later, that cult is still thriving. 3/ > That’s how they treated “one of their own.” A Tea Party guy who all but called Obama a Muslim. They shouted him down for 15 minutes until he had to leave the room. This isn’t the party fringe. This is the mainstream. The party you once knew is gone. It belongs to MAGA now. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t think most of the people who question the 2020 election want to do away with democracy. Lets go back to how you originally characterized this. > [@Max\_S](#): > > opinions of people who question the 2020 election out of hand What was there to question about the 2020 election? Every state certified the results. 61 out of 62 lawsuits failed. So can you be specific here about why we should be listening to people questioning the 2020 election? Why should we treat it as anything other than a Qanon Talking Point? Because the people who “question the 2020 election” are also the people who refuse to admit that Biden **won** the last election. And those people include many that are now sitting in the House and the Senate. It doesn’t matter if they privately know and acknowledge that Biden won. They pretend that he didn’t to keep the faithful in their camp. So based on everything we have seen happen since the early stages of the Obama era do you think the Democrats can take any that is said in any negotiations with the Republicans in good faith? Why bother going down that path when we have seen what happens time and time again? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/92 "2021-02-04T13:12:58Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t think most of the people who question the 2020 election want to do away with democracy. The issue here is that those who question that election **do not even realise** they want to do away with democracy. They are hell bent on making changes that provide the result they want, and to them that IS democracy, the right has redifined the term democracy to mean what they want it to mean. What they are actually seeking, even without knowing it, is the type of ‘democracy’ as practised in Russia - where any oppositions canidadate can be imprisoned on baseless trumped (hehe) up charges and even if cleared by the courts their challenge will be over since you cannot campaign from prison. Look at Russian version of democracy and then look at the right - what you will see is the ambition of one to achieve the other - there is no doubt whatsoever that the right would change the constitution to exclude competition, they have packed the Supreme Court, and they would absolutely continue to compromise the integrity and independence of the judiciary, they would back this up with compromising the police, any states wishing to challenge any of this would definitely lose all federal funding. In the end what you would have as the only alternative power to the Republicans is the military - its not a long journey from that scenario to the Burmese model of ‘democracy’ where the results are not convenient so the army takes over. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/93 "2021-02-04T13:39:27Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t think most of the people who question the 2020 election want to do away with democracy. Well, if they don’t think the person that won ( and once again, it wasn’t a particularly close election, Biden won by large margins) should be allowed to be President, then they do. It’s definitional. I’m not saying they have to like it. Of course they don’t. I didn’t like it when Trump won. But I accepted it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/94 "2021-02-04T14:11:08Z")
Interesting tactic. Commit so many crimes with so many people that you can then complain about how much time is taken up by giving them due process. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/95 "2021-02-04T14:21:40Z")
I think that there will be some idiotic individuals, and probably some small groups, who kill a bunch of people in the name of MAGA. It’s not going to overthrow the govt, or start a civil war. It will even probably turn anyone not entirely brainwashed into the MAGA cult against them. What there is not going to be is a MAGA army marching down the street and occupying or overturning governments. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/96 "2021-02-04T14:26:08Z")
So, either do nothing, and the Republicans win, or do something, and the Republicans win? May as well do something, then. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/97 "2021-02-04T14:31:04Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I did think DeVos & Pompeo were just stupid (still do, by the way). You really shouldn’t do that, you know why? Because: > [@Max\_S](#): > > Once I made that assumption there was no reason to dig deeper. They aren’t stupid. They may believe in some delusional things, but that doesn’t make them stupid. That makes them dangerous. My sister doesn’t think that we’ve been to the moon, is very religious, doesn’t believe in evolution, is pretty MAGA through and through. And yet, she is the General Manager of a pretty major local hotel, with over a hundred employees, and (pre-COVID) hundreds of guests. Being delusional doesn’t mean that one is stupid, and you put yourself in a precarious position by dismissing them that way. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/98 "2021-02-04T14:37:03Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I think it will be different for each person, some might feel like they’ve been screwed by the health care system, some might be in dire financial straights Those would be good reasons to support the party that wants to reform healthcare and provide jobs for those who can work, and a safety net for those who can’t. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Somewhere down the line I guess most of these people have lost faith in government, probably rationally, because some need or set of needs were not met. Right, but it is due to the party that they support that those needs are not met, so it’s not really _rational_ on their part. > [@Max\_S](#): > > My point is that something has to be broken before radical change becomes attractive. Or they need to be convinced by the media that they choose to consume that things are broken and radical change is needed. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/99 "2021-02-04T14:40:59Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I don’t understand what you mean when you talk about how bad it’s going to get “if the good guys don’t cave”. > > What do you mean by “cave”? Donald Trump lost the election. What does “cave” look like to you? If there is a civil war between “Republicans vs the entire US govt and the military” I don’t know exactly what it will be about, I suspect it will be about a number of issues, because I think you’d _need_ that for “Republicans” as a group to get behind it. Would it ONLY be because Trump lost? I doubt it. There’s been chatter about civil war II well before Trump lost and republicans had several branches of govt, so who knows? I mean, there’s still a sizeable percentage of republicans (multi-millions) that think the election was stolen, but I don’t know how many of those are incensed enough about that to do anything about it. Probably not many. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/100 "2021-02-04T14:44:18Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > And try to sustain a democracy where a perpetual 30-40% of the population doesn’t trust elections? It does make it harder when 30-40% of the country no longer wants a democracy, but that doesn’t mean that you give in to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296.md?page=6)