# Why political forgiveness and cooperation won't be coming any time soon **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 23, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296 "2021-01-23T17:14:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/142 "2021-02-12T07:56:05Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > With all due respect, I thought that was the point of this discussion. …with all due respect, why? Why would you think that? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …yeah, but the thing is I never suggested that Mr. Walsh was presenting “a way forward?” You said you didn’t think there was widespread religious devotion to Trump. You thought it was hyperbole. I don’t think it is. And I think that a guy like Walsh, who is one of the people who used to pander to the “tea party crowd” and now feels partly responsible for the monster that he helped create, who talks to the MAGA crowd on his talk show several times a day, I think a guy like Walsh knows a bit more about these people than the rest of us. But YMMV. > > But knowing them doesn’t mean he has all the answers. Hell, there are people in this thread who have predicted what will happen every step of the way who don’t really “have a way forward”. Most people are just like me: watching America roam from crisis to crisis, like a slow-moving train-crash, knowing the train is going to hit the wall, yelling as loudly at everyone “the train is about to hit the wall!!!” while everyone else tries to pretend the train will stop before it crashes. > > And if you were to ask me “what is the best way forward?” My answer would probably be “how the fuck do I know?” Its an extraordinarily big question. What do you do when a cult effectively takes over a political party and the cult enjoys the support of millions of people? I’ve got a few ideas, but am not really in the mood to outline them here right now. And there is a big difference between “suggesting a way forward” and “getting millions of people on board with my suggested way forward.” That was the original post that probably sparked this tangent. I’m still in the “how the fuck would I know” stage. I do know that the Democrats (and Americans that oppose MAGA) can’t take the foot off the gas. And that they have to fight and continue to fight and win everywhere they can. But the specifics of each fight is out of my hands. This is a chaotic and fluid situation. Yes: people **will** care more about what happened in 2021-2022 than they will about promises made for 2023-2024. Which is why the Dems have to **fight like hell right now** to change that. Do you understand the difference to how you are viewing it and how I am? You are viewing it through a normalized lens. This is all normal. And if the Republicans get back in again in 2022 they will have power for a bit and then the Dems will win the next election and everything is going to be fine. I don’t see it that way at all. I think you dodged a big bullet with Trump. But they aren’t going to make the same mistakes again. They are going to double down with everything. More Qanon candidates. More bullshit voter suppression. More bad faith. More lies and propaganda. The Trump years will be nothing compared to what is coming if you don’t put a stop to it now. And the people that will suffer are the people in the margins. Black and indigenous communities. Transgender folk. Immigrants. Muslims. You haven’t seen how bad it can get yet. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Obama was a freshman by comparison. I think Biden has the potential to be another LBJ, and I don’t see any reasonable alternatives to some level of cooperation with Republicans. Biden is going to get the Obama treatment because the Republicans no longer give a fuck about even the pretense of normality any more. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/143 "2021-02-12T07:58:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Why would you think that? ‘America is screwed cuz Republicans’ is more of a rant than a discussion. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And if the Republicans get back in again in 2022 they will have power for a bit and then […] No, I get that. And then it’s all bad, game over, man! ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/144 "2021-02-12T09:24:09Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > ‘America is screwed cuz Republicans’ is more of a rant than a discussion. I would say America’s political system is a mess with things like bribing politicians counting as “speech”, the electoral college and the media landscape inevitably leading to chaos. But it’s been mostly the Republicans (and mostly right wing media) who have really taken advantage of these structural problems. When I think about it, I think a trump figure was inevitable, but with politics as usual would have taken 15-20 more years to appear, we just skipped a few steps in this universe. Bear in mind the next nominee after Trump was Cruz, not Jeb. So something really has to give. It’s not about Dems beating Republicans. It’s about whether the US decline can be reversed or we just give up. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/145 "2021-02-12T10:34:49Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > ‘America is screwed cuz Republicans’ is more of a rant than a discussion. …just a reminder that this was the case that **you made** : > [@Max\_S](#): > > - drafting legislation in secret and pushing them through without debate or negotiations > - stacking amendment slots with minor things like effective date changes or title changes so the opposition cannot file amendments > - refusing to bring opposition-sponsored bills up for consideration at all > - refusing to bring a bill up for vote, even if there are enough votes to pass it, if it shows rifts in your own party > - blatantly false assurances to colleagues (both sides of the isle) about the nature of your legislation > - Using your VP-tiebreaker vote to “interpret” clear violations of procedural rules as consistent with those rules Do you remember writing that list of, what did you call it again… _inherently_ bad faith procedures? It isn’t a rant to argue that a party that one should do everything that you can to make sure a party that **embraces** those tactics do not hold power. **You did the work for me** in the thread to demonstrate that Republicans **are** the problem. You’ve accepted that the Democrats **can** argue in good faith. If the Democrats can do that, then why have the Republicans shown to be incapable of doing that at least in the last four years? And watching the impeachment trials what makes you think that anything is going to change? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/146 "2021-02-12T12:38:49Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It’s quite ironic, I bet millions view Trump and the 147 Republicans like the rest of the country (and world) views Stacey Abrams, who refused to concede after her gubernatorial opponent almost certainly stole the election from her. > > ~Max This is a perfect example of the abusive nature of the Republican Party. Yes, Stacy Abrams refused to concede. She acknowledged that her opponent was certified as the winner and would take office but she claimed there were serious irregularities ( which there _was_ evidence of ). But she did not make this claim loudly or repeatedly, nor did she try to prevent the winner of the race from taking office. She did work, through legal channels, to fix the problems with the state voting system. It seems to have worked, and the recent election results add a little credence to her initial claims. This is what is known as a basically appropriate response. Maybe not perfect, maybe she could’ve been a _little_ more gracious, a little quieter. Donald Trump refused to concede. He claimed, loudly and repeatedly that the election had been stolen. He and his staff solicited false claims of voter fraud. They filed 60 frivolous lawsuits, claiming publicly that the alleged fraud, while knowing full well that they said no such thing, then attacked the judges as corrupt when they rejected his claims. He engaged in multiple pressure and extortion campaigns in order to try and stop the certification of legal votes. When all that failed, he amassed an army to attack Congress and assassinate his vice-President. So, both sides, right…they both refused to concede. Here’s the thing, dude Sometimes the battered wife really did do a crappy job of folding the towels. Pointing out that the victim - did something less than perfect - is the keystone of the abuser defense. If I were you, I’d be concerned that I was getting so _good_ at making these arguments. Be careful not to let this kind of thinking slip into your personal life, please. The key is _ **proportionality** _ . The fact that someone on the other said once said she didn’t think the election she lost was fair doesn’t give you license to conduct a 2 month pressure campaign culminating in a literal insurrection. You can decide you always hit back 10 times harder, but if that’s your doctrine your an abuser and it’s a morally incorrect position, ie _ **WRONG** _. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/147 "2021-02-12T13:56:49Z")
Fuck bipartisanship with this current GOP. Nuke the filibuster and pass a strong voting rights act. Let’s make the next 2-4 years a war of ideas and public policy. The majority of the electorate needs and wants progress, not Republican recalcitrance. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/148 "2021-02-12T15:17:37Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > It’s quite ironic, I bet millions view Trump and the 147 Republicans like the rest of the country (and world) views Stacey Abrams, who refused to concede after her gubernatorial opponent almost certainly stole the election from her. > > > > ~Max > > This is a perfect example of the abusive nature of the Republican Party. > > Yes, Stacy Abrams refused to concede. She acknowledged that her opponent was certified as the winner and would take office but she claimed there were serious irregularities ( which there _was_ evidence of ). But she did not make this claim loudly or repeatedly, nor did she try to prevent the winner of the race from taking office. > > She did work, through legal channels, to fix the problems with the state voting system. It seems to have worked, and the recent election results add a little credence to her initial claims. This is what is known as a basically appropriate response. Maybe not perfect, maybe she could’ve been a _little_ more gracious, a little quieter. > > Donald Trump refused to concede. He claimed, loudly and repeatedly that the election had been stolen. He and his staff solicited false claims of voter fraud. They filed 60 frivolous lawsuits, claiming publicly that the alleged fraud, while knowing full well that they said no such thing, then attacked the judges as corrupt when they rejected his claims. He engaged in multiple pressure and extortion campaigns in order to try and stop the certification of legal votes. When all that failed, he amassed an army to attack Congress and assassinate his vice-President. > > So, both sides, right…they both refused to concede. > > Here’s the thing, dude > > Sometimes the battered wife really did do a crappy job of folding the towels. Pointing out that the victim - did something less than perfect - is the keystone of the abuser defense. If I were you, I’d be concerned that I was getting so _good_ at making these arguments. Be careful not to let this kind of thinking slip into your personal life, please. > > The key is _ **proportionality** _ . The fact that someone on the other said once said she didn’t think the election she lost was fair doesn’t give you license to conduct a 2 month pressure campaign culminating in a literal insurrection. > > You can decide you always hit back 10 times harder, but if that’s your doctrine your an abuser and it’s a morally incorrect position, ie _ **WRONG** _. Thanks, @Ann_Hedonia! I saw this response when I logged in this morning and was going to answer, but you said everything I wanted to and a bunch more. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/149 "2021-02-12T17:46:25Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I strongly doubt Democrats can pin legislative setbacks on Republicans (even when it is the Republicans’ fault) when they boast control of both houses and the Presidency. The political apathy in this country is too strong for your average voter to look past the surface, IMO. Therefore Democrats need a plan to get things done _before_ November 2022, independent of “fighting like hell” to get out the vote. Which is exactly why the would have to go nuclear if the Republicans are obstructionists. If the Republicans prevent them from getting things done, and as you say, and I agree, that they will not be able to pin it on the Republicans, even when it is their fault, then that’s what they need to do. That’s what fighting like hell looks like. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I assert that Democrats _must_ either enlist Republican support or use bad faith tactics to pass meaningful legislation in these areas. Otherwise the legislation will be blocked by a filibuster. And what if Republicans simply refuse to support, no matter what? > [@Max\_S](#): > > It’s quite ironic, I bet millions view Trump and the 147 Republicans like the rest of the country (and world) views Stacey Abrams, who refused to concede after her gubernatorial opponent almost certainly stole the election from her. Except that no one organized a raid on the Georgia State Capitol. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/150 "2021-02-12T18:56:33Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It’s quite ironic, I bet millions view Trump and the 147 Republicans like the rest of the country (and world) views Stacey Abrams, who refused to concede after her gubernatorial opponent almost certainly stole the election from her. To chime in with what other people said, the fact that Kemp actually did steal the election is a very important detail. A true accusation of someone stealing an election is obviously justified, and justifies refusal to concede, fighting in the courts and raising awareness about what happened. A accusation of someone stealing an election with no evidence is obviously not justified, and does not justify refusal to concede, or trafficking in conspiracy theories, much less inciting a riot. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/151 "2021-02-12T19:15:45Z")
Yep, this. I think one consequence of the insurrection is that the chance of Dems actually getting 50 votes to abolish the filibuster is no longer zero. I’m still not totally optimistic, but I think even the moderates are starting to get it through their heads that the Democrats need to hang together, or else hang separately, possibly literally. National voting by mail, end partisan gerrymandering, DC/PR statehood. Do that and the GOP as currently constituted will never win another national election. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/152 "2021-02-12T20:42:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It isn’t a rant to argue that a party that one should do everything that you can to make sure a party that **embraces** those tactics do not hold power. This is not your argument, is it? Democrats “should do _everything_ [they] can to make sure [Republicans] do not hold power”, but also “The Democrats should not use bad faith tactics” and “Republicans aren’t going to come to the table”. Unless “everything you can” means “nothing”, you contradict yourself. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And watching the impeachment trials what makes you think that anything is going to change? I wouldn’t bet on Republicans coming around to legislate in good faith. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/153 "2021-02-12T20:44:13Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > This is a perfect example of the abusive nature of the Republican Party. Yes, that’s why I brought it up. 😕 ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/154 "2021-02-12T22:15:59Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I do not argue that politics should be above questions of right and wrong. I do argue that in your dealings with politicians, it is naive to assume they will do what you think is the right thing. > > ~Max Maybe. But for certain types of wrong things, wrong things that aren’t _pragmatically wrong_ but needlessly abusive, I believe that you have a duty as a decent person to stand up and push back and call it out, even if it is futile _ **and** _ even if there is a cost to you. Being morally neutral, failing to call out an abusive wrong, is amoral. You’re right, it isn’t always politically expedient. It would’ve been very easy for networks like CNN and news outlets like the NYT and WaPo to go easy on Trump, to not call out every abusive act. They knew it made them looked biased. But you can’t start minimizing abusive behavior even if it is politically expedient. Which is what I think you are suggesting…maybe?.. But I don’t think minimization is politically advantageous. Because normalizing the disproportionate responses just means you’re going to end up normalizing something even worse next time. As someone who was ethical to a fault professionally, I can tell you it has its advantages. Because when everyone _knows_ you’ll never do anything shady, they never ask you. So you _don’t_ get yourself in those situations where you lose a client because you won’t give them dummy invoices for the IRS …because you once offered to help them dodge sales tax, or fake a field damage report. And this is why I think the Republicans have a problem the Democrats don’t. And it’s not just Trump and Trumpism. Their political campaigns are primarily tools for money-laundering and self-enrichment, and only secondarily about getting a candidate elected. They won’t hold their leaders accountable, and they elect leaders that take advantage of not being held accountable. I think they are in danger of losing the business wing of their party, several large corporations have suspended donations to politicians involved in Stop The Steal. The Chamber of Commerce, formerly a Republican stronghold, was active in a behind the scenes alliance to protect democracy from Trump, and has been very bipartisan lately, supporting many Biden initiatives. While businesses like low taxes and deregulation, they also like stability and predictability. A political party whose stated policy on everything is “whatever Trump wants today” is not business friendly. Neither is insurrection. So still feel good about where the Democratic Party is, I feel they’re about to reap the long term benefits of morality. But even if I didn’t, becoming a little bit craven to make Republicans feel better about being extremely craven is not on the menu. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/155 "2021-02-12T22:38:50Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Anything Democrats do that Republicans don’t like is _ **liberal hypocrisy** _ Absolutely correct. It’s not about truth or unifying the country or trying to bring peace. It’s about rhetorical points. “You are being devisive in persecuting Trump.” > [@Pleonast](#): > > For a historical perspective, we tried unity with the traitors of the Civil War, and that gave us a hundred years of a false peace where they disenfranchised and killed Americans who would oppose them. We’re still fighting the same injustices. Justice is necessary for true peace, and true repentance is necessary for forgiveness. We can’t have unity with those who have and continue to commit injustices against us. Yes, the outcome of the Civil War is a lesson. We can’t let them off the hook, absolve them of all wrong doing because that will just feed the anger. We have to hold them accountable for their actions, pass judgment on the illegality, and get them to see where the lines are drawn for acceptable political protest. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t think there’s widespread religious devotion to Trump. I’ve heard it said that way but I always assumed it was hyperbole, not literally “religious” devotion. What would “literal religious devotion” to Trump look like? Believing his lies? Defending his worst actions? Continuing to blame Obama and Hillary for all the country’s woes? Desperately decrying the mainstream media as “liberal fake news” while listening to the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Infowars as “the truth”? Marching on the Capitol and breaking in to hunt down the congressmembers to “Stop the Steal”? > [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t get it. Republicans are asking who to capitulate on what issue? Democrats to capitulate that Trump did nothing wrong, that the Republicans’ actions are all perfectly acceptable, that the narrative that the Dems are just playing power politics is true. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I think there are a couple of state laws criminalizing misinformation but I haven’t read them and I’m not sure how those work given incorporation of the First Amendment. Dominion’s libel suits against Fox et al is a good start. > [@bobot](#): > > I see. So the proud boy who was bashing in the Capitol window with a police shield (That I’m sure he didn’t bring with him to the event, if you know what I’m saying…) - what are his needs that require attention? Return of White, Christian privilege. Subjugation of non-whites to their rightful second class status. Ejection of all Mexican immigrants. Making gays go back in the closet. Etc. > [@asahi](#): > > Off topic, but my fear is that America, which is not a perfect democracy by any stretch but the powerful democracy that the world needs, is squandering opportunities to stop the world’s most important authoritarian regime: China. The next 5-10 years could determine the next 50-100, and perhaps the next 500-1000 years. Not hyperbole. I fear you are correct. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/156 "2021-02-12T22:51:14Z")
I know the comment seems hyperbolic but consider what China has done the last 10-20 years alone, cordoning off the internet, using smartphone tech to basically monitor its citizens everywhere, using a mixture of light touch and heavy-handedness to control communication among social groups, developing a social credit system, and literally destroying cultures in ways similar to how Europeans destroyed native cultures a few hundred years ago. Governments everywhere would love to have that kind of power, and China would love to weaken pro-democracy regimes that stand in their way of global marketplace and political domination. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/157 "2021-02-12T23:40:50Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > This is not your argument, is it? …I’m sorry, but are we not allowed to have multiple arguments? Is that a rule here I’m not aware of? > [@Max\_S](#): > > Democrats “should do _everything_ [they] can to make sure [Republicans] do not hold power”, Yep. > [@Max\_S](#): > > “The Democrats should not use bad faith tactics” Yep. > [@Max\_S](#): > > “Republicans aren’t going to come to the table”. Yep. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Unless “everything you can” means “nothing”, you contradict yourself. If you are choosing to interpret “everything they can” to mean “every single possible behavior under the sun” then you’ve gotten things wrong. I don’t think the Democrats should launch a campaign of mass murder to ensure the Republicans don’t get back into power. I don’t think they should sell illegal drugs to finance their campaigns. I don’t think the Democrats should start targeted assassination’s. Or burn down court buildings. Or negotiate in bad faith. Does that clear things up for you? > [@Max\_S](#): > > I wouldn’t bet on Republicans coming around to legislate in good faith. So why do you advocate reaching out to them then? If they want to be part of the process then they can do the reaching out. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2021, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/158 "2021-02-13T00:32:49Z")
It isn’t hyperbolic because China’s ascent, due in large part to the West’s desire to placate labor at home and virtue signal while outsourcing and transferring manufacturing and manufacturing know how because consumers demand one thing while voting another, is further proof that classical liberalism is not inevitable. We were fortunate during WWII and the cold war that certain American industrial strengths such as mass production were able to overwhelm the axis and the communists with military goods and consumer goods. Well, we forgot that lesson. Worse, we no longer have a common morality or even sense of history or culture in the West. China, on the other hand, is unapologetically nationalist. I don’t see them making the ideological mistakes of the communists that led the Soviet Union. China has proven to be very adaptable. I’d take Taiwan in 2030 or so if I were China. We in the US are moving to the point where it’s obvious we wouldn’t fight to protect the other 1/2 of the US we sure aren’t going to have the stomach to fight China in 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2021, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/159 "2021-02-13T00:42:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It isn’t hyperbolic because China’s ascent, due in large part to the West’s desire to placate labor at home and virtue signal while outsourcing and transferring manufacturing and manufacturing know how because consumers demand one thing while voting another, is further proof that classical liberalism is not inevitable. Labor rights were strengthened considerably both before WWII and in the decades that followed. Labor rights are strong in Eurozone economies, so I don’t see that as the problem. You could argue that transferring our technological and industrial capabilities to China has helped China close a gap and resulted in a blow to the working class, but that by itself isn’t problematic. The US will likely live to regret its trend toward unilateralism and its domestic economic policies that drive wealth inequality, the latter of which has been a transformative political variable both domestically and globally. US leadership, particularly under Republican misrule, has far more in common with illiberal and oligarchal “democracies” than it does Western democracies like our traditional post-WWII allies. ---
**Author:** ![BrickBat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@BrickBat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrickBat)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2021, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/160 "2021-02-13T00:58:01Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > resulted in a blow to the working class, but that by itself isn’t problematic. Interesting perspective… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2021, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296/161 "2021-02-13T01:02:53Z")
Yes they were. But post WWII there was no real competition. What we can afford to do when we have the most developed infrastructure in the world and other countries are bombed out or pre industrialized is much different than what we can afford to do when our competitors share our advantages. Wealth inequality is also not intrinsically bad outside of how it fuels the politics of class resentment and racial resentment when there are disparities. What is bad is transferring productivity and moving to a so-called post industrial economy without the realization that in a heterogenous population not everyone is suited for post industrial work. The biggest problem, however, is the self loathing that has infested the west. The Chinese don’t suffer that mental infection and they will be not just industrially and militarily formidable but formidable in the ability to exploit the social weakness and division of the west. I’m not sure how a civilization embarrassed by it’s success and it’s history can compete with a civilization that is proud of who they are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-political-forgiveness-and-cooperation-wont-be-coming-any-time-soon/931296.md?page=9)