# Why prayer is illogical and useless **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2007, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493 "2007-02-02T02:39:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/1 "2007-02-02T02:39:03Z")
An unprecedented decade-long study of intercessory prayer that cost $2.4 million and was directed by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist at the Harvard University Medical School, has now reported in. It was the most comprehensive study ever of the effects of intercessory prayer on the health and recovery of 1,802 patients undergoing coronary bypass surgery in six different hospitals. The 1,802 patients were divided into three groups, two of which were prayed for by religious believers in three congregations: a monastery in Minnesota, a community of Carmelites in Massachusetts and a prayer Ministry near Kansas City. The prayer groups were instructed to ask for “a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications.” Prayers began the eve of surgery and went on for two weeks, for each patient. **The results, published, in the _American Heart Journal_ showed that the prayers had no effect.** There was no significant statistical difference between the groups. The unprayed-for receovered as well as the prayed-for. It is worth noting that Dr. Benson, far from being a flaming atheist, has long been sympathetic to the possibility that prayer can influence the health of patients. This study is FAR MORE complete and scientifically valid than a series of highly dubious studies that grabbed media attention in the past couple of decades. The other studies, all of which were flawed in methodology or in manner of drawing conclusions, were warmly received by religious believers because they seemed to show a link between prayer and recovery. All of a sudden, though, religious believers are now denying that something like prayer can or should be scientifically studied. Funny how that works! 😃 But perhaps, they have a point. Perhaps prayer cannot be studied scientifically because it makes no logical sense. Consider: If God is omniscient and loves humanity, why does he need to be reminded or pleaded with to heal somebody? Does he not know they are sick? Does he not know that their loved ones want them to get better? Why do we have to come pleading to him as if he were some oriental monarch on his throne? The idea of prayer, that asking God to grant something increases the chances of that thing happening, is unfalsifiable. In science, an assertion must be fasifiable. For example, if we started finding the bones of prehistoric rabbits in the pre-cambrian depositis, that would falsify evolution, or at least an incredibly large chunk of it. How can prayer ever be fasifiable? If you get what you prayed for, it allegedly proves prayer works. If you do not get it, it means that God knows better or does not think you should have that now, or whatever. Finally, consider this. Either there is or there is not a God, right? But if there is no God, is it not logical to suppose that some people would feel a need to comfort themselves by asking that non-existent being for what they need? Would you not logically expect these people to protect their comforting illusion with the unfalsifiable and unchallengeable reasoning described above? Does that not seem to be exactly what is happening here on earth? You are speaking into a dead phone line, folks. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/2 "2007-02-02T02:57:23Z")
Beating a dead horse is also illogical and useless, yet we still see more atheism posts. Do you get green stamps if you score a convert or what? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/3 "2007-02-02T03:10:20Z")
[QUOTE=Oakminster] Beating a dead horse is also illogical and useless, yet we still see more atheism posts. Do you get green stamps if you score a convert or what? [/QUOTE] Gee, Oakminster, who is the dead horse in this analogy? The minds of religious people? Funny how religion can be screamed from pulpits across the country and on TV and on every fucking dollar bill in the US (in God we Trust) but let an atheist try to flog the dead horse of religious thought with a little logic and . . . . . . . ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/4 "2007-02-02T03:19:39Z")
The dead horse is yet another provocative atheism post in Great Debates. You don’t see the religous crowd posting multiple “You’ll burn in hell” threads. The religion bashing crowd seems to be on a recruiting drive or something. Militant atheists are as annoying as evangelicals, they’re just selling a different product. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/5 "2007-02-02T03:20:42Z")
[We’ve done this before, recently](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=387801). I disagree with your (OP) thesis and I don’t feel like retyping everything all over again. I personally don’t have any sense that prayer alters realities (the whole “God as Santa Claus” version of what it means to pray) but that’s not how I use the term or engage in the practice. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/6 "2007-02-02T03:39:26Z")
The study was specifically about _intercessory_ prayer, not prayer in general. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/7 "2007-02-02T03:46:50Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] An unprecedented decade-long study of intercessory prayer that cost $2.4 million and was directed by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist at the Harvard University Medical School, has now reported in. [/QUOTE] By now, I assume you mean last March? [http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3\_31STEP.html](http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html) Interesting methodology employed: - Caregivers and independent auditors comparing case reports to medical records were unaware of the patients’ assignments throughout the study. The study enlisted members of three Christian groups, two Catholic and one Protestant, to provide prayer throughout the multi-year study. The researchers approached other denominations, but none were able to make the time commitments that the study required. Some patients were told they may or may not receive intercessory prayer: complications occurred in 52 percent of those who received prayer (Group 1) versus 51 percent of those who did not receive prayer (Group 2). Complications occurred in 59 percent of patients who were told they would receive prayer (Group 3) versus 52 percent, who also received prayer, but were uncertain of receiving it (Group 1). Major complications and thirty-day mortality were similar across the three groups. Unlike traditional intercessory prayers, STEP investigators imposed limitations on the usual way prayer-givers would normally provide prayer. The researchers standardized the start and duration of prayers and provided only the patients’ first name and last initial. Prayers began on the eve or day of surgery and continued daily for 14 days. Everyone prayed for received the same standardized prayer. Providing the names of patients directed prayer-givers away from a desire to pray for everyone participating in the study. Because the study was designed to investigate intercessory prayer, the results cannot be extrapolated to other types of prayer.\* Thus, they used only Christians, and defined the kind of prayer to be used and the manner of praying. It’s almost like they made their own religion. Maybe they got bad prayers. Maybe they needed some other faith. Conclusions based on this data seem speculative at best. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/8 "2007-02-02T03:56:46Z")
**Valteron** , in terms of _petitinary_ prayer, you’re mostly preaching to the choir here, even among theists. I’ve done this thread a time or two myself. Most of the theists around here will readily concede that prayer which asks for stuff is a dubious exercise at best, admittedly unfalsifiable, arguably theologically illogical, etc. When I’ve done this, they tend to say that prayer (to them) has more to do with spiritual communion, confession, trying to find the correct psychological attitude, balance or “water level” in their relationship to God, or asking for qualities like courage, patience or self-discipline. Although you’re absolutely right about petitionary prayer, certain other kinds of prayer aren’t that much different than Eastern meditative practices which are about finding self-awareness, equanimity, objectivity, etc. I actually think it amounts to _exactly_ the same thing, but that theistic prayer adopts a cognitive technique of communicating with an objective external entity (real or imagined) which helps cut through blocks in self-evaluation caused by ego. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/9 "2007-02-02T04:06:01Z")
This just in: this was in, like, months ago. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/10 "2007-02-02T04:08:24Z")
[QUOTE=Oakminster] The dead horse is yet another provocative atheism post in Great Debates. You don’t see the religous crowd posting multiple “You’ll burn in hell” threads. The religion bashing crowd seems to be on a recruiting drive or something. Militant atheists are as annoying as evangelicals, they’re just selling a different product. [/QUOTE] While I agree that the number of seeming lack of cause for all these thread is sort of annoying, so is the whining about it. I mean, this is Great Debates. If someone wants to argue about it, this is where they come, and, in fact, there can be a lot of interesting debate. If you don’t like it, fine, but it’s a tad hypocritical to complain about threadshitting and then come into these threads and basically do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/11 "2007-02-02T04:09:36Z")
Perhaps it depends on number. Maybe God says, “Well, sorry guy, I would have remitted your cancer if just ONE MORE PERSON had prayed for you, but you’re just fucked. So sorry.” ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/12 "2007-02-02T04:28:03Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] While I agree that the number of seeming lack of cause for all these thread is sort of annoying, so is the whining about it. I mean, this is Great Debates. If someone wants to argue about it, this is where they come, and, in fact, there can be a lot of interesting debate. [/QUOTE] Kinda hard to have much in the way of interesting debate when the OP boils down to: _People that pray are doody-heads. Here’s a nearly year old study I just found that doesn’t really say much of anything, but there is no god. Neener-neener._ ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/13 "2007-02-02T04:38:15Z")
[QUOTE=Oakminster] Kinda hard to have much in the way of interesting debate when the OP boils down to: _People that pray are doody-heads. Here’s a nearly year old study I just found that doesn’t really say much of anything, but there is no god. Neener-neener._ [/QUOTE] Well, are you gong to bitch about it, or fight ignorance, or leave it to others to do so (I think Hunter’s link pretty much did the deed, since we’ve talked this subject out pretty well)? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/14 "2007-02-02T04:49:04Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] since we’ve talked this subject out pretty well)? [/QUOTE] Which was my point. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/15 "2007-02-02T05:56:19Z")
It’s patently obvious prayer is **useless.** That has nothing to do with **illogical.** ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/16 "2007-02-02T06:14:49Z")
Prayer is not useless. It can not be shown to affect the outcome of surgery, sporting events, or anything else. It does, however, provide some measure of comfort and/or hope to those who believe in it. That’s worth something. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/17 "2007-02-02T09:17:46Z")
I don’t see how an activity that an individual finds comfort in can be called “useless”, and I’m even atheir than the OP. Heck, to me stamp collecting is “useless” in the sense that I don’t actually do it, but if someone likes to pass his time at it, good for him. From his perspective, many of my elective activities can seem equally useless. I don’t need his approval, though, and he doesn’t need mine. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/18 "2007-02-02T12:17:53Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] You are speaking into a dead phone line, folks. 😃 [/QUOTE] The scientists, led by Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School, emphasized that they looked only at the effect of prayer on the patients in their study – and **could not address questions such as whether God exists or answers prayers**. [http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/03/30/prayer-heart-surgery-20060330.html](http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/03/30/prayer-heart-surgery-20060330.html) (Emphasis mine) ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/19 "2007-02-02T12:18:55Z")
A world in which the Biblical God regularly talked to us, gave us advice, or answered our prayers would be a nonsensical Alice through the looking glass landscape. It’d be impossible to just sit down and have a rational conversation about cause and effect or physics. I also liked George Carlin’s old routine. Presumably, god has a divine plan for everyone. Isn’t it a little presumptuous on your part to ask him to change it? I mean, he spent a lot of time on his divine plan 6,000 years ago…and you’re asking him to change it nilly willy! You don’t like it when people ask you to change your plan, do you? Have some sympathy for god. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493/20 "2007-02-02T12:38:25Z")
[QUOTE=Oakminster] Prayer is not useless. It can not be shown to affect the outcome of surgery, sporting events, or anything else. It does, however, provide some measure of comfort and/or hope to those who believe in it. That’s worth something. [/QUOTE] This bears discussing. Does prayer provide a measure of comfort and/or hope to a greater extent than other forms of meditation or counseling, and are there studies pertaining to this topic? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prayer-is-illogical-and-useless/390493.md?page=2)