# Why prevent felons from voting?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 9, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187 "2014-08-09T21:16:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/81 "2014-08-11T14:39:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> It’s equal parts amusing and disturbing that despite the fact I have said about eighty-seven times that it’s purpose is punishment you are completely sanguine about announcing, “It serves no purpose but to continue to hold the offender outside of society.”
>
> No, Frank. It does serve another purpose: PUNISHMENT.
>
> It’s purpose is to punish. A fine takes away something of value, money. The loss of civil rights takes away something of value: civil rights.
Yeah, we know. But there are lots of ways to punish someone. And the mere fact of imprisonment takes away most of a person’s civil rights anyway. Why this particular punishment? You sound like [Zoot’s identical twin sister Dingo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4aGYq4bz10) here.
To me, the most problematic aspect of this particular punishment, considered as punishment, is that it is operative during the time after release from prison, when the primary goal shouldn’t be punishment _per se_, but reintegration. One can see how community service might serve both goals, but denying the vote to felons who have served their prison time punishes by explicitly _denying_ them part of their reintegration.
When a felon is released from prison, the objective should be to minimize the likelihood of his committing acts that would lead to his return. Who has more reason to avoid committing hostile acts against society - someone who is both present and involved in that society, or someone who is physically present but still outcast?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/82 "2014-08-11T14:48:01Z")
I get the point of Bricker’s attempted hijack; we’re supposed to knee-jerkedly respond “Oh, no! Felons shouldn’t have _guns!_” at which point he could say “Gotcha! You don’t have a problem with felons losing their 2nd Amendment civil rights, so why are you hypocritically saying they should keep their voting civil rights?”
The problem is that if it’s too dangerous, as he suggests, for felons to be able to influence the body politic by voting, surely it follows that they’re too dangerous to be able to influence the body of… somebody… by shooting. Influence them into a hospital or morgue, as it were.
I’ll be happy to discuss this in a thread specific to felon gun rights.
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/83 "2014-08-11T14:56:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> When a felon is released from prison, the objective should be to minimize the likelihood of his committing acts that would lead to his return. Who has more reason to avoid committing hostile acts against society - someone who is both present and involved in that society, or someone who is physically present but still outcast?
It’s amazing the degree to which this simple and basic objective of the justice and corrections systems is just forgotten or dismissed. It seems like sometimes folks just [go out of their way to alienate the previously convicted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17626197&postcount=47) who have served their time. And then they wonder why the recidivism rate is so high.
> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> > [@Bricker](#):
> >
> > By the way: how do you feel about the prohibition against felons owning guns?
>
> I’m scared to death of a violent felon with a ballot.
>
> No telling what he might do with that thing.
It’s a concern. He might poke you in the eye with it! 😃
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/84 "2014-08-11T15:13:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> Well, since the arguments for felon disenfranchisement remain tenuous at best, as a matter of practicality, wouldn’t it simply be easier to give every citizen upon reaching 18 or being naturalized a permanent voter ID number which is theirs for life and can never be taken away, like the franchise itself? Surely that would greatly simplify the whole voter ID issue. As it is, voter rolls in various U.S. venues have to strike people off and then put them back. … what’s the point? It just significantly increases the chances for errors.
I like the permanent voter ID number plan, but would strike “…like the franchise itself,” from your approach, since I don’t agree that the felon disenfranchisement arguments are tenuous at all.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/85 "2014-08-11T15:20:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> Yeah, we know. But there are lots of ways to punish someone. And the mere fact of imprisonment takes away most of a person’s civil rights anyway. Why this particular punishment? You sound like [Zoot’s identical twin sister Dingo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4aGYq4bz10) here.
>
> To me, the most problematic aspect of this particular punishment, considered as punishment, is that it is operative during the time after release from prison, when the primary goal shouldn’t be punishment _per se_, but reintegration. One can see how community service might serve both goals, but denying the vote to felons who have served their prison time punishes by explicitly _denying_ them part of their reintegration.
>
> When a felon is released from prison, the objective should be to minimize the likelihood of his committing acts that would lead to his return. Who has more reason to avoid committing hostile acts against society - someone who is both present and involved in that society, or someone who is physically present but still outcast?
Please note that I don’t favor a scheme that simply forecloses the possibility of ever regaining voting rights. I disfavor an automatic restoration, but am in agreement with requiring the felon to apply, proactively:
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Part of the punishment is the loss of the right to vote.
>
> Regaining it should be a matter of some effort, not an automatic function of the passage of time.
So explain why this approach is so evil. It allows the felon to express, tangibly, his desire to reintegrate.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/86 "2014-08-11T15:21:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> I like the permanent voter ID number plan, but would strike “…like the franchise itself,” from your approach, since I don’t agree that the felon disenfranchisement arguments are tenuous at all.
I get that you disagree, I just don’t see your basis for doing so as much more than a petty “scorn the sinner” vindictiveness with a side of “sit up and beg, that’s a good dog.”
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/87 "2014-08-11T15:23:52Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> I get that you disagree, I just don’t see your basis for doing so as much more than a petty “scorn the sinner” vindictiveness.
What is the difference between imposing a fine and imposing a loss of civil liberties? Why is only one of those “petty?”
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### Author:  [@hkepotat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hkepotat)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/88 "2014-08-11T15:34:02Z")
More than just voting rights, but civil rights in general are taken away from the felon. Even after jail, parole and probation, they are still labeled for life. There are many places where you cannot rent an apartment with a felony on your record, student loans for college are a non-starter, and it is much more difficult to get a job. (This is also, though to a somewhat lesser extent, true for misdemeanors as well.)
I understand the reason for this. As an employer, I would not hire a felon. This is not because I do not believe that people can reform, but that I am not in a position to judge such. If I were to hire a felon that I believed had reformed, but then he assulted another employee, I could be liable for creating an unsafe situation. I should have known that the felon would be at a higher risk than the general population for such acts.
We need to have some sort of program or institution than can make that determination. Once someone has repaid their debt to society, and shown that they are as unlikely to re-offend than the general population, the felon label should drop off and all rights restored. Then they don’t have to put that they are a felon on their applications for employment and shelter, and have a much higher chance of reintegrating successfully into society.
Instead, they are shunned and pretty much exiled from meaningful participation, so with no legal alternatives to poverty, they have little choice but to commit further crimes, for which we choose to punish them further.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/89 "2014-08-11T15:43:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> What is the difference between imposing a fine and imposing a loss of civil liberties? Why is only one of those “petty?”
I can’t help but note your shift from something specific (punitive fines) to something general (loss of civil liberties). I don’t see a problem with deprivation of civil liberties (I suppose one could argue a fine IS the loss of a civil liberty, or at least the 8th amendment recognizes and prohibits fines that are “excessive”) that are plausibly relevant. I can even picture loss of franchise during incarceration. After release, though? The value eludes me.
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### Author:  [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/90 "2014-08-11T15:47:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> What is the difference between imposing a fine and imposing a loss of civil liberties? Why is only one of those “petty?”
Seriously, you don’t see the difference? One, is mandatory, the other isn’t. Felons generally take what they want, screw the rules. If they don’t get it one way, they get it another. I honestly doubt they give a rat’s ass about voting anyway as they want as little contact with the “man” as possible.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/91 "2014-08-11T16:01:29Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#):
>
> Seriously, you don’t see the difference? One, is mandatory, the other isn’t. Felons generally take what they want, screw the rules. If they don’t get it one way, they get it another. I honestly doubt they give a rat’s ass about voting anyway as they want as little contact with the “man” as possible.
Also, voting begins with “v” and fines begin with “f.”
Can you explain how, specifically, one being mandatory and one not makes one petty and the other not?
If anything, your comment suggests value in removing the vote.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/92 "2014-08-11T16:03:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> I can’t help but note your shift from something specific (punitive fines) to something general (loss of civil liberties). I don’t see a problem with deprivation of civil liberties (I suppose one could argue a fine IS the loss of a civil liberty, or at least the 8th amendment recognizes and prohibits fines that are “excessive”) that are plausibly relevant. I can even picture loss of franchise during incarceration. After release, though? The value eludes me.
A felon who is unwilling to apply for restoration shows his lack of genuine interest in possessing the franchise.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/93 "2014-08-11T16:29:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Please note that I don’t favor a scheme that simply forecloses the possibility of ever regaining voting rights. I disfavor an automatic restoration, but am in agreement with requiring the felon to apply, proactively:
>
> So explain why this approach is so evil. It allows the felon to express, tangibly, his desire to reintegrate.
No, I’m good with that. In order to regain his voting rights, the felon should be required to proactively apply to regain those rights.
We already have such a mechanism in place, I’m sure you’ll be glad to know. It’s called “registering to vote.” I have taken that proactive step myself, several times along the way, as I’ve moved from state to state.
I’m glad we had this conversation. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/94 "2014-08-11T16:37:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Disagree. It’s part of the punishment. A felony is a serious crime, by definition. Part of the punishment is the loss of the right to vote.
>
> Regaining it should be a matter of some effort, not an automatic function of the passage of time.
>
> By the way: how do you feel about the prohibition against felons owning guns?
Speaking of the passage of time, Others have replied very well while I missed the conversation. Sitting a cell is all about the passage of time.
But, being a felon should be temporary. It isn’t that hard to become a felon and not all felons are violent so why having a gun is an issue for all of them is not fair. One mistake (generally speaking) should not be the definition of who you are for the rest of your life.
As for guns in general I’m all for re-writing the 2nd amendment to make it a bit harder to have one, especially hand guns.
Now for the personal, my son is a felon and has never spent time in jail. I believe he was not guilty but we lacked the resources to have a prolonged battle to prove it. He spent 12 months probation and 200 hours community service, but the label still follows him even though in 10 years he has not had so much as a speeding ticket. I don’t believe he is all that special and his circumstances are most likely repeated by others.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/95 "2014-08-11T16:37:41Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> No, I’m good with that. In order to regain his voting rights, the felon should be required to proactively apply to regain those rights.
>
> We already have such a mechanism in place, I’m sure you’ll be glad to know. It’s called “registering to vote.” I have taken that proactive step myself, several times along the way, as I’ve moved from state to state.
>
> I’m glad we had this conversation. 🙂
“Registering to vote” is not an application to regain voting rights.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/96 "2014-08-11T16:39:23Z")
> [@Lanzy](#):
>
> Speaking of the passage of time, Others have replied very well while I missed the conversation. Sitting a cell is all about the passage of time.
>
> But, being a felon should be temporary. It isn’t that hard to become a felon and not all felons are violent so why having a gun is an issue for all of them is not fair.
Yes, it’s hard to become a felon. Sorry.
By that I mean: it might not be difficult to commit the act. It’s not accidental.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/97 "2014-08-11T16:42:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> A felon who is unwilling to apply for restoration shows his lack of genuine interest in possessing the franchise.
You’re still begging the question - why is it useful for him to lose the franchise in the first place?
Further, by your logic, why not make 18 year olds show a genuine interest before giving them.the franchise?
That last question is a.tangent, it doesn’t need a response.
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### Author:  [@hkepotat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hkepotat)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/98 "2014-08-11T16:51:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Yes, it’s hard to become a felon. Sorry.
>
> By that I mean: it might not be difficult to commit the act. It’s not accidental.
It may be hard to be a felon when you never need to make hard choices in your life. When you have no perceptible legal alternatives to poverty, it can be easier. When you can be accused of a crime, and do not have the resources to provide an adequate defense, it can be very easy.
I do not see how society is served by punishing a felon after they have completed their required duties to repay society and demonstrate their willingness to reintegrate into legal society. If you feel the crime is great enough to punish them further than current law, then lock them up longer, add to their fine, or increase their community service.
Letting them back into society, but requiring them to carry a label to hold them apart from society is continuing the punishment past any useful point. Unless you believe that justice should be focused primarily on punishment, and ensuring that anyone who has done wrong can never again enjoy the benefits that the “law abiding” do.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/99 "2014-08-11T16:51:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> “Registering to vote” is not an application to regain voting rights.
What would be a sufficient display, in your view?
Please don’t just reply that the states should set their own standards, I’m asking for your opinion.
---
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/100 "2014-08-11T16:58:22Z")
> [@hkepotat](#):
>
> It may be hard to be a felon when you never need to make hard choices in your life. When you have no perceptible legal alternatives to poverty, it can be easier. When you can be accused of a crime, and do not have the resources to provide an adequate defense, it can be very easy.
Heck, being black and/or poor is a factor, not because of any predilection toward crime, but because it increases the chances of being charged and convicted, rightly or otherwise.
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