# Why prevent felons from voting?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 9, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187 "2014-08-09T21:16:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/101 "2014-08-11T17:03:58Z")
> [@jtur88](#):
>
> But it punishes us all, by eroding the principle of universal suffrage, the truest form of democracy.
>
> In my opinion, even green card aliens ought to be allowed a vote, and maybe even illegals, for all I care. The voting right should be for anyone subject to US laws and taxes, and to deny it is taxation without representation. We still have the same philosophy as when votes were only cast by rich white male landowners, but a few more classes of people have been let in. Why not let everyone in, and have a say in what laws and taxes they are subject to?
>
> I don’t believe in segregating the nation into those I approve of and those I don’t, and allowing ballot privileges on that basis. I do not fear a free election with universal suffrage.
Limiting the franchise has always been a prerogative of the franchisees.
We limit the franchise to people over 18. I don’t see how denying a 16 year old the vote is any worse than denying someone convicted of a erious crime the right to vote.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/102 "2014-08-11T17:05:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> You’re still begging the question - why is it useful for him to lose the franchise in the first place?
>
> Further, by your logic, why not make 18 year olds show a genuine interest before giving them.the franchise?
>
> That last question is a.tangent, it doesn’t need a response.
It’s useful as a punishment.
It is a punishment that symbolizes the rift the felon created by his conduct between himself and society. By committing a felony, he separates himself from society. The loss of civil liberties, like voting rights and Second Amendment rights, is a tangible expression of that separation.
That’s why it’s useful.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/103 "2014-08-11T17:06:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> That’s a tad broader than I had in mind - can permanent residence be a requirement for noncitizens? Hence, tourists don’t get to vote, but someone with a green card and residence in the U.S. and (one hopes) an income on which they pay taxes.
>
> Come to think of it, _do_ noncitizens with green cards file a return with the IRS? If not, I can see that being a deal-breaker.
Yeah, all residents are subject to income taxes, whether they be citizens, permanent residents, visa holders of illegal aliens. In fact when Elton John plays in Madison Square garden, he is subject to US taxes on the income earned from that performance.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/104 "2014-08-11T17:09:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Problem with that theory is the felons have been disenfranchised for more than 140 years. Felons lost all civil rights in medieval Europe before the United States ever existed.
Agreed, the racism was not in the denial of the vote to felons, it was in making minorities felons in record numbers. It was through selective enforcement and prosecution to put minorities in a disenfrachised class rather than the disenfranchisement of a class that minorities belonged to.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/105 "2014-08-11T17:13:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> What would be a sufficient display, in your view?
>
> Please don’t just reply that the states should set their own standards, I’m asking for your opinion.
My opinion:
Be free from any sentence served and/or supervised probation or parole – that is, totally outside the supervision of the state
Not have any subsequent misdemeanor or felony convictions in any other state
Have no pending criminal charges
Have paid all court costs, fines, penalties and restitution
A letter or reference from your most recent probation officer
Letters of reference from at least three people, non-family members, attesting to your good character
A letter from you to the governor, or other state official in charge of the process, that lays out your crime’s circumstances, a statement of repentance, and your desire to restore your civil rights
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/106 "2014-08-11T17:14:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> It’s useful as a punishment.
>
> It is a punishment that symbolizes the rift the felon created by his conduct between himself and society. By committing a felony, he separates himself from society. The loss of civil liberties, like voting rights and Second Amendment rights, is a tangible expression of that separation.
>
> That’s why it’s useful.
It seems that most states think that this rift should not outlive the term of the original sentence. Unless somsone is convincted of felony voter fraud or something, the continued prohibition has nothing to do with the initial crime. Unlike sex offender requirements or restrictions on gun ownership by felons.
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### Author:  [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/107 "2014-08-11T17:14:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> A felon who is unwilling to apply for restoration shows his lack of genuine interest in possessing the franchise.
A quick view of this cite shows that 22% of the states follow your logic. And some of the states on the list of 11 who do aren’t exactly known for their exemplary treatment of prisoners. (Alabama, Arizona, Florida…)
> **[Felon Voting | Pros, Cons, Debate, Arguments, Voting Rights, Conviction,...](https://www.britannica.com/procon/felon-voting-debate)**
>
> Should Felons Regain the Right to Vote?
You’re arguing a position held by 22% of the states. I’d call that a _minority_ position.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/108 "2014-08-11T17:15:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> It seems that most states think that this rift should not outlive the term of the original sentence. Unless somsone is convincted of felony voter fraud or something, the continued prohibition has nothing to do with the initial crime. Unlike sex offender requirements or restrictions on gun ownership by felons.
Why is the opinion of “most states” binding on all states?
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### Author:  [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/109 "2014-08-11T17:17:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Sure. And felony disenfranchisement is also imposed by democratic means. So, we’re all good.
Woo Hoo! If franchised voted for it it must be good. Let’s hear it for Jim Crow!
Personally I think Democracy works best when all special interest groups have a say in the electoral process. Those who have been previously convicted of crimes have their own specific sets of interests and concerns and those interests deserve to be heard by the body politic. If as Bricker fears pirates and counterfeiters find themselves to be a significant political body than that would indicate to me that it might be worth while reviewing the piracy laws to determine why so many people fall under them, and that perhaps those that violated these laws might have legitimate concerns. I understand that it is in the franchised’s best interest to limit voting to as small a group as possible so as to not dilute their power, but frankly complaining about loss of influence in this case raises as much sympathy in me as those who complain that thanks Rosa Parks they can’t find a seat at the front of the bus anymore.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/110 "2014-08-11T17:27:25Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#):
>
> A quick view of this cite shows that 22% of the states follow your logic. And some of the states on the list of 11 who do aren’t exactly known for their exemplary treatment of prisoners. (Alabama, Arizona, Florida…)
> [Felon Voting | Pros, Cons, Debate, Arguments, Voting Rights, Conviction, & Penalty | Britannica](http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000286)
> You’re arguing a position held by 22% of the states. I’d call that a _minority_ position.
Yes.
So complete your argument. How persuasive is a majority-state position?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/111 "2014-08-11T17:29:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> It’s useful as a punishment.
>
> It is a punishment that symbolizes the rift the felon created by his conduct between himself and society. By committing a felony, he separates himself from society. The loss of civil liberties, like voting rights and Second Amendment rights, is a tangible expression of that separation.
>
> That’s why it’s useful.
To who? Someone who feels good reminding felons that they aren’t true citizens anymore? I stand by my “petty” assessment, and that’s before we get to data-integrity issues in voter rolls where law abiding citizens who happen to have a name similar to a felon get purged.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/112 "2014-08-11T17:34:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> My opinion:
>
> Be free from any sentence served and/or supervised probation or parole – that is, totally outside the supervision of the state
>
> Not have any subsequent misdemeanor or felony convictions in any other state
>
> Have no pending criminal charges
>
> Have paid all court costs, fines, penalties and restitution
>
> A letter or reference from your most recent probation officer
>
> Letters of reference from at least three people, non-family members, attesting to your good character
>
> A letter from you to the governor, or other state official in charge of the process, that lays out your crime’s circumstances, a statement of repentance, and your desire to restore your civil rights
Got any evidence any of this would reduce recidivism, because if it’s all just for symbolism, why not quadruple the requirements?
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/113 "2014-08-11T17:41:25Z")
Not to go all Heinlein but I think being a felon pretty much demonstrates yu do not have societies best interests at heart.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/114 "2014-08-11T17:44:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> It is a punishment that symbolizes the rift the felon created by his conduct between himself and society. By committing a felony, he separates himself from society. The loss of civil liberties, like voting rights and Second Amendment rights, is a tangible expression of that separation.
>
> That’s why it’s useful.
You haven’t even attempted to explain why it’s useful, actually. You’ve asserted that it “symbolizes” something. Fine, so why is that useful? What aim does it accomplish?
“Symbolic” and “useful” are not synonyms.
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### Author:  [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/115 "2014-08-11T17:46:59Z")
Perhaps **Bricker** , this book will cause you to see that it’s not a black and white issue.
Felon for Peace: The Memoir of a Vietnam-Era Draft Resister
Jerry Elmer
Vanderbilt University Press, Sep 9, 2005 - History - 280 pages
The only felon to graduate from Harvard Law school in 1990
Was he a hero or a villain?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/116 "2014-08-11T17:47:46Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> Not to go all Heinlein but I think being a felon pretty much demonstrates yu do not have societies best interests at heart.
As I recall, Heinlein proposed (in\* Starship Troopers\*, anyway) that the franchise, once earned with two years of service, could not be taken away for _any_ reason.
Of course, if a citizen or civilian was executed for crimes that the U.S. does not currently consider capital, that was another matter.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/117 "2014-08-11T17:53:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> Got any evidence any of this would reduce recidivism, because if it’s all just for symbolism, why not quadruple the requirements?
Strawman. Where do you see me arguing that this reduces recidivism?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/118 "2014-08-11T17:58:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> “Symbolic” and “useful” are not synonyms.
Well, symbols can be useful as shorthand. In this case, denial of the franchise is shorthand for “YOU’RE A GODDAM FILTHY SINNER WHO SHOULD DO SOCIETY A FAVOR AND JUST FUCKING KILL YOURSELF AND BURN IN HELL SO YOU DON’T CONTAMINATE HONEST FOLK!!!”
Of course, I may be reading too much into it.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/119 "2014-08-11T17:59:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Strawman. Where do you see me arguing that this reduces recidivism?
Nowhere. That’s why your position is pointless.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/120 "2014-08-11T18:08:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> Nowhere. That’s why your position is pointless.
You seem to have real trouble differentiating between my position – that this is punishment – and your strawman of my position, which apparently involves recidivism. You’ve defiantly rebutted my non-existent claim of recidivism and now suggest that this disproves punishment.
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