# Why prevent felons from voting?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 9, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187 "2014-08-09T21:16:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/121 "2014-08-11T18:16:16Z")
As punishment, what purpose does it serve?
It’s needless retribution that has no socially desirable benefit. At least, 78% of the states see it that way.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/122 "2014-08-11T18:16:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> You seem to have real trouble differentiating between my position – that this is punishment – and your strawman of my position, which apparently involves recidivism. You’ve defiantly rebutted my non-existent claim of recidivism and now suggest that this disproves punishment.
No, I cheerfully recognize that denial of the franchise is punishment. It’s just as far as I can tell, it’s a petty and utterly useless punishment that quite possibly does more harm than the as-yet-unproven good you claim it offers.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/123 "2014-08-11T18:21:25Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#):
>
> It’s needless retribution that has no socially desirable benefit.
Unless you see simply keeping “the wrong sort of people” from voting \*as \*being a benefit.
It certainly does not aid the rehabilitation/reintegration process to legally bar it from being completed.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/124 "2014-08-11T18:40:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> “Registering to vote” is not an application to regain voting rights.
Sure it is. You can’t vote until you are registered. That’s the law.
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/125 "2014-08-11T18:42:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> We limit the franchise to people over 18. I don’t see how denying a 16 year old the vote is any worse than denying someone convicted of a erious crime the right to vote.
The difference is that the 16-year-old is deemed to still be a child, but in two more years, he won’t be.
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> It’s useful as a punishment.
>
> It is a punishment that symbolizes the rift the felon created by his conduct between himself and society. By committing a felony, he separates himself from society. The loss of civil liberties, like voting rights and Second Amendment rights, is a tangible expression of that separation.
>
> That’s why it’s useful.
It’s a “punishment” that has no demonstrable benefit to society, unlike all the other punishments that the convict has already endured, or further limitations imposed on him that are directly related to the risks he may still pose to society. Disenfranchisement is related to nothing, and protects nothing, AFAICT. It does, however – just as you say – serve to separate and alienate the person from society and inhibits reintegration and rehabilitation. That’s why _ **it’s the opposite of useful** _ – it’s counterproductive.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/126 "2014-08-11T18:50:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> “Registering to vote” is not an application to regain voting rights.
> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> Sure it is. You can’t vote until you are registered. That’s the law.
“Registering to vote” is not an application to **regain** voting rights.
“Registering to vote” is fairly, if inartfully, described as an application to gain voting rights. I suppose.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/127 "2014-08-11T18:52:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> No, I cheerfully recognize that denial of the franchise is punishment. It’s just as far as I can tell, it’s a petty and utterly useless punishment that quite possibly does more harm than the as-yet-unproven good you claim it offers.
If it punishes, how can you say it’s useless as a punishment?
If it doesn’t punish, how can you object to it?
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/128 "2014-08-11T18:53:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> My opinion:
>
> Be free from any sentence served and/or supervised probation or parole – that is, totally outside the supervision of the state
There’s no good reason for the latter requirement, other than you think it is fitting.
> [@](#):
>
> Not have any subsequent misdemeanor or felony convictions in any other state
>
> Have no pending criminal charges
A question for you: while you’re on parole, or have criminal charges pending against you, do you lose your First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and assembly, and the right to petition for redress?
So are you saying that the right to vote is less fundamental than these rights?
> [@](#):
>
> Have paid all court costs, fines, penalties and restitution
A poll tax for felons! What could be wrong with that?
Oh yeah, there’s something in the Constitution (24th Amendment) about that, isn’t there?
> [@](#):
>
> A letter or reference from your most recent probation officer
>
> Letters of reference from at least three people, non-family members, attesting to your good character
>
> A letter from you to the governor, or other state official in charge of the process, that lays out your crime’s circumstances, a statement of repentance, and your desire to restore your civil rights
So: if you jump through all these hoops, should restoration be automatic, or is it dependent on the approval of the governor or other state official?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/129 "2014-08-11T18:54:54Z")
I feel like googling up articles about nonfelon citizens who were purged from voter rolls because they have names similar to disenfranchised felons. They would show the “symbolic” punishment in an amusing light - the paperwork John Smith (felon) isn’t bothering to do to restore his voting rights gets transferred to John Smythe (nonfelon).
If John Smythe can’t or won’t go through the process… well… we can assume he just didn’t want to vote hard enough.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/130 "2014-08-11T19:06:28Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> There’s no good reason for the latter requirement, other than you think it is fitting.
1. I don’t concede your authority to decide what reasons are “good.”
2. In the rationales above, much is made of the felon having completed his sentence. Probation is a part of that sentence.
> [@](#):
>
> A question for you: while you’re on parole, or have criminal charges pending against you, do you lose your First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and assembly, and the right to petition for redress?
>
> So are you saying that the right to vote is less fundamental than these rights?
Yes, that’s exactly what I am saying. That’s why the Constitution specifically and explicitly says that the right to vote can be conditioned on lack of criminal convictions, but doesn’t say the same about speech and assembly.
> [@](#):
>
> A poll tax for felons! What could be wrong with that?
Nothing. Would you like a legal citation?
> [@](#):
>
> So: if you jump through all these hoops, should restoration be automatic, or is it dependent on the approval of the governor or other state official?
It should be an exercise of discretion.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/131 "2014-08-11T19:11:20Z")
Let’s reverse the order here:
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> “Registering to vote” is fairly, if inartfully, described as an application to gain voting rights. I suppose.
Good.
> [@](#):
>
> “Registering to vote” is not an application to **regain** voting rights.
How not?
At any rate, you said the felon should do something proactive to regain his voting rights. Registering to vote is a proactive act. There you go.
But apparently, you want a whole bunch of proactive acts - not just from him, but _from four other people_, which means he’s got to pester four other people to do stuff for him that (other than the probation officer) is outside their normal experience.
I remember the first time I had to ask people to write references for me. It was in high school, when I was applying to colleges. I absolutely hated doing that, it was hard to go to people and ask them to do something extra like that for me - for something they had experience doing, and I was getting A’s in their classes, so it wasn’t like it was going to be all that hard for them. But I still had to really screw up my courage. Asking people to write letters for me was outside of _my_ experience, outside of my comfort zone.
However, I had the carrot of college dangling in front of me, and the stick of parents who expected me to have these conversations so I could send in my applications.
It’s not going to be any easier for an ex-con to have these conversations. And there’s no parallel incentive structure, needless to say.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/132 "2014-08-11T19:19:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> If it punishes, how can you say it’s useless as a punishment?
Are you seriously asking why I might object to punishment for the sake of punishment, or is this a stall for time?
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/133 "2014-08-11T19:28:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> Are you seriously asking why I might object to punishment for the sake of punishment, or is this a stall for time?
Yes. Punishment is an appropriate goal of a penal system. The word penal means punishment.
Why would you possibly believe punishment for the sake of punishment is somehow inappropriate?
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/134 "2014-08-11T19:31:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> 1. I don’t concede your authority to decide what reasons are “good.”
Well, I don’t make the same concession to you. So what? You’re the one who’s saying, in effect, “the requirements should be these because I think that’s what they should be.”
[QUOTE]
> [@](#):
>
> 1. In the rationales above, much is made of the felon having completed his sentence. Probation is a part of that sentence.
Nice use of the passive voice, buckaroo. In the rationales you give, **you** make much of the felon having completed his sentence, and making the distinction between prison and parole less important than that between probation and a complete lack of supervision.
Because **Bricker** , that’s why.
> [@](#):
>
> Yes, that’s exactly what I am saying. That’s why the Constitution specifically and explicitly says that the right to vote can be conditioned on lack of criminal convictions, but doesn’t say the same about speech and assembly.
You mean “rebellion, or other crime” in the Fourteenth Amendment? And “high crimes and misdemeanors” means that the President can be impeached for a moving violation.
And there’s no reason why it should be done, just because it can be.
> [@](#):
>
> Nothing. Would you like a legal citation?
No, because even if the law (which on occasion is an ass) has decided that it’s OK to condition voting on such things, that doesn’t mean it’s right to do so.
> [@](#):
>
> It should be an exercise of discretion.
So you’re asking an ex-con to jump through a pile of hoops, and it’s still a crapshoot at the end.
I’m a bit more advantaged in dealing with this shit than the average ex-con, and I have a hard time seeing why I’d bother applying under your rules, except out of sheer cussedness.
I think you have proposed a system that’s both counterproductive and hardhearted.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/135 "2014-08-11T19:43:08Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> Let’s reverse the order here:Good.
> How not?
Because the word “regain,” means to gain after having been lost.
> [@](#):
>
> At any rate, you said the felon should do something proactive to regain his voting rights. Registering to vote is a proactive act. There you go.
I said the felon should be required to apply, proactively. I did not say that any proactive action, no matter how insignificant, should suffice.
> [@](#):
>
> But apparently, you want a whole bunch of proactive acts - not just from him, but _from four other people_, which means he’s got to pester four other people to do stuff for him that (other than the probation officer) is outside their normal experience.
>
> I remember the first time I had to ask people to write references for me. It was in high school, when I was applying to colleges. I absolutely hated doing that, it was hard to go to people and ask them to do something extra like that for me - for something they had experience doing, and I was getting A’s in their classes, so it wasn’t like it was going to be all that hard for them. But I still had to really screw up my courage. Asking people to write letters for me was outside of _my_ experience, outside of my comfort zone.
>
> However, I had the carrot of college dangling in front of me, and the stick of parents who expected me to have these conversations so I could send in my applications.
>
> It’s not going to be any easier for an ex-con to have these conversations. And there’s no parallel incentive structure, needless to say.
The point of the exercise is to show an integration into society.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/136 "2014-08-11T19:46:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Why would you possibly believe punishment for the sake of punishment is somehow inappropriate?
Why **wouldn’t** any decent person believe that’s inappropriate?
Punishments are supposed to be related to the crime - if in no other manner, prison terms are supposed to be proportional to the severity of the crime. (And prison serves other purposes besides punishment: putting criminals behind bars protects the rest of us from such people, and the possibility of incarceration deters most of us from the temptation of crime.) Other aspects of a sentence, such as restitution, community service, or being restricted from living in certain areas or resuming certain professions, usually have a connection with the crime: sometimes clear and direct, other times more tangential. But by and large, they’re not “punishment for the sake of punishment,” and that is a good thing.
Denial of voting rights, OTOH, is punishment for the sake of punishment. It is punishment with no object. It does not make the rest of us safer. It isn’t likely to deter anyone who isn’t deterred by the threat of prison, and it does not relate to the nature of the particular crime.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/137 "2014-08-11T19:49:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> The point of the exercise is to show an integration into society.
It’s a pretty damn big exercise, as you would design it, with a very real possibility of nothing to show for it at the end.
Not to mention, as I’ve been saying all along, it’s just the Wisdom of **Bricker** that says restoration of voting rights should be the result of and a demonstration of reintegration, rather than a factor to help bring it about.
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### Author:  [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/138 "2014-08-11T20:06:07Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> A question for you: while you’re on parole, or have criminal charges pending against you, do you lose your First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and assembly, and the right to petition for redress?
>
> So are you saying that the right to vote is less fundamental than these rights?
The right to vote is about control over other people. It is the right to have a say in what people should be forced to do or not do. There is nothing hypocritical about believing a felon deserves or can be trusted with the right to communicate, but not the right to steer the government in the direction he wants it to go.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/139 "2014-08-11T20:17:14Z")
[quote=“RTFirefly, post:134, topic:695187”]
Well, I don’t make the same concession to you. So what? You’re the one who’s saying, in effect, “the requirements should be these because I think that’s what they should be.”
> [@](#):
>
> Nice use of the passive voice, buckaroo. In the rationales you give, **you** make much of the felon having completed his sentence, and making the distinction between prison and parole less important than that between probation and a complete lack of supervision.
Um:
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> I can understand denying the vote while the felon is incarcerated (Maine and Vermont allow it) - they are, after all, not participating in the political process in any conventional sense, and there may be security issues - but after release \*\*and completion of parole? \*\*
(Bolding added for emphasis)
> [@](#):
>
> You mean “rebellion, or other crime” in the Fourteenth Amendment?
Yup. Richardson v. Ramirez.
> [@](#):
>
> No, because even if the law (which on occasion is an ass) has decided that it’s OK to condition voting on such things, that doesn’t mean it’s right to do so.
Doesn’t mean it’s wrong, though. So my point is twofold:
1. Your ideas of “right” and “wrong” are not remotely persuasive to me. I’m convinced that applying your concept of morality to our country would destroy us in a couple of generations. So the mere fact that you announce a decree of rightness or wrongness is utterly without relevance to me.
2. We are both subject to the law.
> [@](#):
>
> I think you have proposed a system that’s both counterproductive and hardhearted.
I don’t.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-prevent-felons-from-voting/695187/140 "2014-08-11T20:17:21Z")
> [@Grumman](#):
>
> The right to vote is about control over other people. It is the right to have a say in what people should be forced to do or not do. There is nothing hypocritical about believing a felon deserves or can be trusted with the right to communicate, but not the right to steer the government in the direction he wants it to go.
The problem is, the flip side of this is also true. Law enforcement can be applied unequally to different groups to control certain groups, and denying felons the franchise as well after they’ve served their prison time acts in a long-term manner to continue reducing the say of those groups in how our society is run.
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