# Why Republicans don't trust Democrats and their budgeting **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585 "2011-04-16T04:56:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/101 "2011-04-26T20:46:09Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > [This study](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa580.pdf) includes a table from the 2006 PEW report on political ideology. You might find this interesting: > > ```auto > > > Income Level Libertarians Conservatives Liberals > $75,000+ 31 21 29 > $50,000–$74,999 10 14 16 > $30,000–$49,999 18 26 20 > $20,000–29,999 14 15 12 > <$20,000 14 16 13 > > ``` I find that fascinating, especially the totals for each column: Liberals = 90% Conservatives = 92% Libertarians = 87% Thirteen percent of Libertarians have income neither less than $20k, nor greater than $75k, nor anywhere in between. Must be that Libertarian math. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/102 "2011-04-27T02:44:24Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Do you have a cite for that, or are you just assuming that you must be upper middle class or better to be a libertarian? In any event, you’re wrong. Most libertarians are NOT at least upper middle class. In fact, only about a third of them are - about the same as liberals. > > I’ve been a libertarian all my life, and I was in the bottom income quintile until I was about 30 years old. I had a lot of libertarian friends in my social strata. > > Did it ever occur to you that perhaps not all poor people see government as being their big friendly protector, and that a lot of them see labor unions as a way for much wealthier people to maintain their living standards by freezing the truly poor out? > > The contact that really poor people have with government is often negative. We are disproportionately singled out by the police, government social workers would be intrusive and demanding, public housing sucks, etc. > > Sorry, but this just reads like your bias as to who and what libertarians are. > > Do you know who’s _really_ insulated from the effects of big government? Academics, public union workers, and young liberals who come from wealthy families. > > In fact, liberals tend to be wealthier than both conservatives OR libertarians. > > [This study](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa580.pdf) includes a table from the 2006 PEW report on political ideology. You might find this interesting: > > ```auto > > Income Level Libertarians Conservatives Liberals > $75,000+ 31 21 29 > $50,000–$74,999 10 14 16 > $30,000–$49,999 18 26 20 > $20,000–29,999 14 15 12 > <$20,000 14 16 13 > > ``` > > Notice that there are more poor libertarians than there are poor liberals. And that there are significantly more middle class and upper-middle class liberals. > > So much for libertarians being rich people who are sheltered from the consequences of their beliefs. There are almost as many libertarians in the bottom two quintiles as in the top quintile. > > Notice also that conservatives tend to have lower incomes than liberals, and that liberals (and libertarians) are more likely to be rich than are conservatives. Sam is there a reason why you always cherry pick your data? Seriously? And it wouldn’t kill you to actually call out that this is a Cata Institute white paper. Why don’t you quote the entire data instead of 81% of it? And what are “populists”? Your Cato Institute linked paper doesn’t define it but I infer they are kinda like libertarians. Besides, I posited that in my personal experience, Libertarians were in higher income brackets. Your table supports that with or without the populists ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/103 "2011-04-27T03:00:03Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You do know there’s another side to the ADA, right? It adds significantly to the cost of opening a new business, it adds paperwork costs, and it puts businesses at the mercy of inspectors who may or may not take a literal reading of the very complex statutes and shut a business down for something stupid like a tap in a bathroom being 2" too high. There are a lot of ADA horror stories out there. > > Another thing it does is breed resentment towards disabled people, and it kills innovation in ways to allow disabled people cope with the infrastructure. We can have an entire debate on the ADA if you’d like, but it’s not a simple one, and the assumption that the ADA is an unmitigated good is not warranted. Yep, actually I am well aware of this. It goest back to why there was a need for ADA in the first place. As a society, we have decided that it is not a survival of the fittest. Rather that we also accomodate those in our society that are less fortunate through birth, chromosomes, circumstances, etc. You obviously don’t think that the disadvantaged should have special treatment or at least not this much special treatment and have said so. You also think special treatment of the handicapped breeds resentment. What’s your definition of bigotry then? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/104 "2011-04-27T04:40:40Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I live in a loser state. Colorado. We have the University of Denver (hello, high ranking government officials!) and CU. Thanks to the university, I have one of the best neurologists in the region. Boulder has a high number of Ph.Ds just hanging out as residents. We used to have the highest number of people with a B.A.s per state capita, but that’s probably changed. It did change which is why Hickenlooper has implemented the College in Colorado program to encourage our graduates to go to post-secondary school. But one problem I see is try to name all of the 4 year school not in the Denver-Cheyenne corridor. Off the top of my head UCCS CSU-Pueblo Colorado College Regis Mesa State Western State Adams State Fort Lewis College Did I miss any? Not to say that they aren’t good schools but if you want to go to the top schools in the state like CU, CSU, DU/Illif, UNC you are forced to move to the Denver area. And from whay I have seen, the attitude is that there are two educational Colorados, the haves (Denver-Cheyenne) and the have-nots (everywhere else) and that gap is only getting wider. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/105 "2011-04-27T17:05:03Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Sam is there a reason why you always cherry pick your data? Seriously? And it wouldn’t kill you to actually call out that this is a Cata Institute white paper. > > Why don’t you quote the entire data instead of 81% of it? And what are “populists”? Your Cato Institute linked paper doesn’t define it but I infer they are kinda like libertarians. > > Besides, I posited that in my personal experience, Libertarians were in higher income brackets. Your table supports that with or without the populists There are lots of different kinds of libertarians, high income ones and low income ones : > **[24 Types of Libertarians - The Big Picture](https://ritholtz.com/2010/07/24-types-of-libertarians/)** > > Ampersand: \> hat tip Babak! The one uniting facotr they have however, whatever age group or income group they’re in is that libertarians are a bunch of silly little boys and girls who don’t want to pay taxes. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/106 "2011-04-27T17:50:49Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > [This study](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa580.pdf) includes a table from the 2006 PEW report on political ideology. You might find this interesting: > > ```auto > > Income Level Libertarians Conservatives Liberals > $75,000+ 31 21 29 > $50,000–$74,999 10 14 16 > $30,000–$49,999 18 26 20 > $20,000–29,999 14 15 12 > <$20,000 14 16 13 > > ``` > > Notice that there are more poor libertarians than there are poor liberals. And that there are significantly more middle class and upper-middle class liberals. I’d rather look at, say, some[exit polls from actual elections](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2010/results/polls/#USH00p1). They don’t tell me that liberals are bunched towards the top end of the income spectrum. They tell me that the further up the income ladder you are, the more likely you are to vote Republican: ```auto Vote by Income Under $30,000 (17%) D 57% R 40% Other 3% $30-50,000 (19%) D 51% R 46% Other 3% $50-75,000 (21%) D 45% R 51% Other 4% $75-100,000 (15%) D 42% R 56% Other 2% $100-200,000 (19%) D 43% R 56% Other 1% $200,000 or More (8%) D 34% R 64% Other 2% ``` And that’s pretty much what the results have looked like, election after election. There’s a lot of bullshit about effete, well-off liberals, but the reality is that the more well-off someone is, the more likely they are to vote Republican. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/107 "2011-04-28T00:29:53Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Did I miss any? Air Force Academy 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/108 "2011-04-28T01:46:14Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You do know there’s another side to the ADA, right? It adds significantly to the cost of opening a new business, it adds paperwork costs, and it puts businesses at the mercy of inspectors who may or may not take a literal reading of the very complex statutes and shut a business down for something stupid like a tap in a bathroom being 2" too high. There are a lot of ADA horror stories out there. > > Another thing it does is breed resentment towards disabled people, and it kills innovation in ways to allow disabled people cope with the infrastructure. We can have an entire debate on the ADA if you’d like, but it’s not a simple one, and the assumption that the ADA is an unmitigated good is not warranted. > > Any program can be justified if all you ever look at are the benefits. Do you claim adherence to any religion or established code of morals or ethics, Sam? I’m just wondering, because I can’t think of one that is well-esteemed that your politics don’t piss and shit all over. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/109 "2011-04-28T03:03:27Z")
Mammon? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/110 "2011-04-28T05:29:51Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Sam is there a reason why you always cherry pick your data? Seriously? And it wouldn’t kill you to actually call out that this is a Cata Institute white paper. In what way did I cherry pick my data? As the for Cato report, it’s only the container for the PEW report I actually cited. It has nothing to do with CATO. I simply linked to it in that report because I initially couldn’t find the source report on the internet and didn’t have much time to look. Well, I’ve looked now and eventually found it. [Here’s the Pew Report](http://pewresearch.org/pubs/17/in-search-of-ideologues-in-america) in full, complete with the exact table I linked. If you think citing Pew is ‘cherry picking’, then tell me what a better source would be - and I hope you’re not going to point to RTFirefly’s exit polling data, because that IS cherry-picking. The people who vote, then agree to an exit poll are a self-selected group. > [@](#): > > Why don’t you quote the entire data instead of 81% of it? And what are “populists”? Your Cato Institute linked paper doesn’t define it but I infer they are kinda like libertarians. Populists are nothing like libertarians. I’m surprised that you don’t know what they are. In any event, I’ve linked to the source. Go read it yourself. As for why I didn’t quote the ‘entire data’ - I quoted PEW exactly. I have no idea why their numbers don’t add up to 100% - my guess is because some people didn’t want to report their income. But I really don’t know - and I don’t appreciate your constant accusations of dishonesty. > [@](#): > > Besides, I posited that in my personal experience, Libertarians were in higher income brackets. Your table supports that with or without the populists Your ‘personal experience’ and about $3.50 will buy you a Latte’ at Starbucks. I prefer to look at actual sociological studies. Maybe that makes me a little more honest than you. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/111 "2011-04-28T05:31:02Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I find that fascinating, especially the totals for each column: > > Liberals = 90% > Conservatives = 92% > Libertarians = 87% > > Thirteen percent of Libertarians have income neither less than $20k, nor greater than $75k, nor anywhere in between. > > Must be that Libertarian math. Yeah, the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press is just a hotbed of Libertarianism. Try reading more carefully next time. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/112 "2011-04-28T05:34:06Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > There are lots of different kinds of libertarians, high income ones and low income ones : > > [24 Types of Libertarians - The Big Picture](http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/07/24-types-of-libertarians/) > The one uniting facotr they have however, whatever age group or income group they’re in is that libertarians are a bunch of silly little boys and girls who don’t want to pay taxes. Oh, screw off. Jesus you people just have to go for character assassination every time, don’t you? Okay, in that case liberals are scared little boys who are terrified of living without a big government nanny to protect them from the big bad world. Now, does that advance the debate? Or is it just useless blather? It’s the kind of crap I expect to see on Daily KOS or Free Republic. Partisan bilge replacing nuanced thought. But hey, whatever floats your boat. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/113 "2011-04-28T05:44:47Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Do you claim adherence to any religion or established code of morals or ethics, Sam? I’m just wondering, because I can’t think of one that is well-esteemed that your politics don’t piss and shit all over. Yes, I’m a Satan worshipper, and I love eating babies and raping women. All libertarians do. And yes, I do adhere to a code of morals. My morals follow the line of enlightenment thinking from John Locke on forward, which says that humans are born free, and no person or group has a right to enslave others or bend them to their will by force. I believe in the ultimate dignity and sovereignty of the individual, who has a right to live his own life and enter into contract freely with other individuals, so long as he or she does not initiate force against others. I believe that the proper role of government is to maximize individual rights by preventing some from imposing their will on others through force, fraud and monopoly power. I believe that when markets are possible, they are preferable to government edict, but that markets occasionally fail and government has a role to protect the citizens from the consequences of market failure. But again, the ultimate purpose of government intervention is to enhance liberty. I do not believe in ‘economic rights’, because such a right cannot exist without taking away the freedom of other individuals who must be compelled to provide the economic rights. For example, you can not guarantee a right to health care without stripping a health care provider of his right to treat who he chooses for his own reasons. You cannot guarantee employment rights for handicapped people without stripping away the rights of a business owner to use his own property as he sees fit and to hire who he wants for his own reasons. I believe that when government steps beyond that role and attempts social engineering or the large-scale ‘planning’ of society through force, bad things happen. I guess that makes me a blood-drinking monster. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/114 "2011-04-28T06:24:21Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It did change which is why Hickenlooper has implemented the College in Colorado program to encourage our graduates to go to post-secondary school. But one problem I see is try to name all of the 4 year school not in the Denver-Cheyenne corridor. Off the top of my head > > UCCS > CSU-Pueblo > Colorado College > Regis > Mesa State > Western State > Adams State > Fort Lewis College > > Did I miss any? Not to say that they aren’t good schools but if you want to go to the top schools in the state like CU, CSU, DU/Illif, UNC you are forced to move to the Denver area. And from whay I have seen, the attitude is that there are two educational Colorados, the haves (Denver-Cheyenne) and the have-nots (everywhere else) and that gap is only getting wider. And the thousands of undocumented who can’t go to college. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/115 "2011-04-28T06:26:22Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Yes, I’m a Satan worshipper, and I love eating babies and raping women. All libertarians do. Stop trotting this tired little trope out. You aren’t bullied here. You’re judged by what you say, which is very often either grossly ill-conceived, or incredibly cold and selfish. I’d rather believe the former, but you seem to be a pretty smart guy, so it’s hard not to lean toward the latter. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And yes, I do adhere to a code of morals. My morals follow the line of enlightenment thinking from John Locke on forward, which says that humans are born free, and no person or group has a right to enslave others or bend them to their will by force. I believe in the ultimate dignity and sovereignty of the individual, who has a right to live his own life and enter into contract freely with other individuals, so long as he or she does not initiate force against others. > > I believe that the proper role of government is to maximize individual rights by preventing some from imposing their will on others through force, fraud and monopoly power. I believe that when markets are possible, they are preferable to government edict, but that markets occasionally fail and government has a role to protect the citizens from the consequences of market failure. But again, the ultimate purpose of government intervention is to enhance liberty. > > I do not believe in ‘economic rights’, because such a right cannot exist without taking away the freedom of other individuals who must be compelled to provide the economic rights. For example, you can not guarantee a right to health care without stripping a health care provider of his right to treat who he chooses for his own reasons. You cannot guarantee employment rights for handicapped people without stripping away the rights of a business owner to use his own property as he sees fit and to hire who he wants for his own reasons. > > I believe that when government steps beyond that role and attempts social engineering or the large-scale ‘planning’ of society through force, bad things happen. > > I guess that makes me a blood-drinking monster. You’re going to have to be more specific. You’re speaking in generalities about how you feel a government should be run, not about any specific set of moral, ethical, or religious values. When you say Locke “on forward,” would you include post-enlightenment philosophers of Liberalism such as Bentham and Mill? They would agree with most of what you wrote here on liberty, yet be aghast at what you said about the ADA, citing their utility principle. How have the “horror stories” of “paperwork costs” taken more from you[sup]1[/sup] than standardized accessibility has given to those with disabilities? I’d bet my two functional legs (which I’m grateful every day for) that they haven’t. I saw a guy earlier this evening on the second floor of my building, confined to a wheel chair, getting himself around, who I’m sure would very much love to hear all about how the ADA has ruined your life. Do you care what it’s done for his? [sup]1[/sup]Collective “you” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/116 "2011-04-28T06:55:21Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Stop trotting this tired little trope out. You aren’t bullied here. You’re judged by what you say, which is very often either grossly ill-conceived, or incredibly cold and selfish. I’d rather believe the former, but you seem to be a pretty smart guy, so it’s hard not to lean toward the latter. I didn’t say I was bullied. You accused me of ‘shitting and pissing’ on every ethical and religious system you can think of. You weren’t being a bully - you were simply throwing out an obnoxious insult. And an ignorant one, at that. > [@](#): > > You’re going to have to be more specific. You’re speaking in generalities about how you feel a government should be run, not about any specific set of moral, ethical, or religious values. Yeah, it’s hard to teach a class in Libertarian ethics in a message board post. You’re a smart guy - I’m sure you can find the reference material. > [@](#): > > When you say Locke “on forward,” would you include post-enlightenment philosophers of Liberalism such as Bentham and Mill? They would agree with most of what you wrote here on liberty, yet be aghast at what you said about the ADA, citing their utility principle. Yeah well, libertarianism != utilitarianism. > [@](#): > > How have the “horror stories” of “paperwork costs” taken more from you[sup]1[/sup] than standardized accessibility has given to those with disabilities? I’d bet my two functional legs (which I’m grateful every day for) that they haven’t. I saw a guy earlier this evening on the second floor of my building, confined to a wheel chair, getting himself around, who I’m sure would very much love to hear all about how the ADA has ruined your life. Do you care what it’s done for his? Look, I understand the good intentions of the Americans with Disabilities act. In practice though, it has all kinds of problems. For another point of view, you can read [John Stossell’s](http://reason.com/archives/2010/09/02/good-intentions-gone-bad) article on it at Reason. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/117 "2011-04-28T07:07:22Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Yeah, the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press is just a hotbed of Libertarianism. Try reading more carefully next time. Whatever they are, their math sucks, so their data is suspect. I reject your cite as unreliable. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/118 "2011-04-28T07:33:24Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Look, I understand the good intentions of the Americans with Disabilities act. In practice though, it has all kinds of problems. For another point of view, you can read [John Stossell’s](http://reason.com/archives/2010/09/02/good-intentions-gone-bad) article on it at Reason. We can talk about that article in another thread if you’d like; this thread isn’t about why John Stossell is stupid. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I didn’t say I was bullied. You accused me of ‘shitting and pissing’ on every ethical and religious system you can think of. You weren’t being a bully - you were simply throwing out an obnoxious insult. And an ignorant one, at that. > > Yeah, it’s hard to teach a class in Libertarian ethics in a message board post. You’re a smart guy - I’m sure you can find the reference material. > > Yeah well, libertarianism != utilitarianism. So your answer to my original question = ? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/119 "2011-04-28T09:25:35Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Boulder is a fantastic bubble world - my brother lives there and I’ve been visiting for 30+ years. > > I guess one thing that really gets me about Libertarians is that most are at least upper middle class, and somehow they expect that magically all those government services won’t go away but will be done better and more efficiently at the local level. And if it doesn’t work out, oh well, most Libertarians are insulated from a lot of the effects. It’s kinda like tax cuts at top levels to increase revenue, if it doesn’t work out the higher brackets have more money to cover the reduced services anyway. > > I sure as hell don’t want to leave my autistic daughter at the mercy of State or local funding. Holy Jesus, just sat through a parents night where someone was venting about being on a waitlist for 5 years and then the program got cancelled for lack of funding a few months ago. The amount of state level funding from the Department of Developmental Disabilities is pathetically small. It basically amounts to nothing in my tax bracket, and slightly more than nothing for people making half my salary or less. If it weren’t for things like ADA, it would be even smaller. Before ADA the services in public schools were much more limited than today, so I’d appreciate it if posters wouldn’t trot this out as some example of horrid government waste that local schools will step up and do better. I used to work in a classroom with children with autism and it killed me to think they had to get on waiting lists at age _eleven_ for adult services. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585/120 "2011-04-28T15:20:16Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In what way did I cherry pick my data? As the for Cato report, it’s only the container for the PEW report I actually cited. It has nothing to do with CATO. I simply linked to it in that report because I initially couldn’t find the source report on the internet and didn’t have much time to look.. Cherry pick in that you can’t even be bothered to put all the columns in the table you posted so the numbers don’t add. Then someone like me has to go and look up your quote, hunt through the white paper for the table, see that it’s missing some columns, then try to figure out what that all means. then if one were to look up populists, which is the missing column, a layman like myself might think that there is a big overlap between populists and libertarians. [Wiki’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populism)definition is: Populism, defined either as an ideology,[1][2][3][4] or (more uncommonly) a political philosophy,[5][6][7] or a type of discourse,[3][6] i.e., of sociopolitical thought that compares “the people” against “the elite”, and urges social and political system changes. It can also be defined as a rhetorical style employed by members of various political or social movements. It is defined by the Cambridge dictionary as “political ideas and activities that are intended to represent ordinary people’s needs and wishes”.[8] It can be understood as any political discourse that appeals to the general mass of the population, to the “people” as such, regardless of class distinctions and political partisanship—“a folksy appeal to the ‘average guy’ or some allegedly general will”.[10] Thus rendering your hair splitting of partial data moot. This seems to be a pretty common practice in many of your posts and cites. And that’s just taking the source data at face value. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-republicans-dont-trust-democrats-and-their-budgeting/578585.md?page=7)