# Why say no to God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2000, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980 "2000-08-19T19:16:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BillyBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/34f0e0/32.png) [@BillyBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillyBoy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/61 "2000-08-22T17:21:52Z")
> [@](#): > > BUT… while y’all might be pretty sick of being told about the “true path,” using misrepresentations and straw man attacks only demeans yourselves. Degenerating to name calling essentially (only in more florid terms) and making wild attacks on something that are by definition beyond your knowledge (why Sq. is a Christian, whether he is venal enough to believe it just for the supposed benefits, and whether he has given up personal responsibility) is, frankly, kind of embarrasing. In looking back through the thread, I don’t see all that many misrepresentations. Which ones are you talking about? As for attacks on something without definition, wouldn’t you say that the true nature of spirituality is one of the least well-defined things going? Religious faith is, by definition, beyond the realm of factual knowledge. > [@](#): > > Many good points were made in opposition, but the venom is something I can do without around here. Looking back again through the posts, it really seems like this thread has been relatively venom-free. I agree whole-heartedly with the air of peaceful and enlightened exchange that you are trying to promote; however, I think there are other threads that are in much more dire need of “shaming” - why waste it here, in a relatively civilized (as far as message boards go) discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Lotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sweet\_Lotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Lotus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/62 "2000-08-22T17:58:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > Jumbo shrimp! > \*\* Jumbo shrimnp is not an oxymoron since “shrimp” is a noun and “jumbo” is the adjective. Seafood is entirely capable of being large, and its largeness in no way compromises its identity as seafood. ---
**Author:** ![TampaFlyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71e660/32.png) [@TampaFlyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TampaFlyer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/63 "2000-08-22T20:31:31Z")
\> My life completely changed, I went from deep depression to fullfilled joy in a matter of minutes. Reminds me of my first orgasm. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2000, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/64 "2000-08-23T04:32:23Z")
Venom, to an extent: > [@](#): > > There is no “something like that.” God does not exist. You’re fooling yourself. > [@](#): > > Yes I don’t want to rid myself logic, reason and common sense to believe in a moral authority in the sky with out any credible evidence to support it. Assumptions about why IAS is a Christian: > [@](#): > > Just because you’ve decided to listen to what others tell you and believe them blindly, doesn’t mean a) that you’re right or b)that anyone else wants to hear it. > I strongly urge you to give your life back over to yourself and start thinking for yourself. > [@](#): > > Squirrel, just because your life was empty doesn’t mean everybody’s is. Some of us don’t need a crutch. > [@](#): > > I’m sure abdicating personal responsibility is uplifting. Straw Man attacks on Christianity as a whole: > [@](#): > > And what is it full of now? Thinking about what the Invisible Man in the Sky thinks of your every action? Some of the things that I’ll give a hearty “Amen!!” to: > [@](#): > > The best Christians to me are not the ones with fake grins of their faces trying to put a Jesus reference into everything they say. > [@](#): > > They would be against the militarists, money lenders, tyrants, wife beaters, and gay bashers. With the caveat that I’m not sure what the money lenders are here for exactly, and (having no intention of diverting this thread from its intended course) because I’m completely against bashing gays, literally or verbally, it doesn’t mean that I believe they’re doing something that’s good for them. The two aren’t the same thing. Also: I’m not saying that spirituality isn’t complicated. Of course. But if there is such a thing as spirituality (in other words, spirits that are not like ourselves; that’s pretty much what it means), then they are what they are, and our interactions or lack of them are what they are, and have the effects that they do. No matter of wishful thinking will change that. And no, you can’t have spirituality without spirits. That’s called philosophy, not spirituality. Being nice is not spirituality. Believing in something non-material is. ---
**Author:** ![NAWOC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d6d6ee/32.png) [@NAWOC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAWOC)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/65 "2000-08-25T03:15:08Z")
It sounds like the usual to me: - Friedrich Nietzsche’s On the Genealogy of Morals - Derrida On Deconstructionism - Foucault on Post-modernism The Bible is the best “dataset” there is, who honestly has read it, and studied it? I’ve met a lot of Christians and non-Christians alike that have not studied the literature of the “other”; and truly, having studied non-Christian literature all my life, the Bible is a breath of fresh air. God is dead, that’s pretty dumb: from someone who only believes in what he/she sees, but has nothing to do with creation in the slightest (man’s life is insignificant). The point is, people don’t want the truth, they want what makes them happy, and happiness is ever changing. People will always forever be lost. God is for those that would believe, the weak, the humble, not the proud, or the selfish. Why would God reveal himself to them? Only if he saw in them a good heart, that he could use for his purposes. God’s wisdom is a mystery, he’s really awesome and incredible. Religion, philosophy, politics are of men. God is the most real, man simply a creation of his. The smartest men and women I know are believers, in fact that’s why I changed my major in college to Physics, because the physicists confounded by the incredible creation of the universe were believers to the core of an incredible God, making the world in his liking. > [@](#): > > 1st Corinthians 1:20-29 says: > Where is the one who is wise? > Where is the debater of this age? > Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? > For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, God decided, through the follishness of our proclamation, to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks desire wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength… > > God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; > God chose what is low and despised in the world, things that are not, to reduce to nothing things that are, so that no one might boast in the presence of God. [What Is Salvation?](http://www.salvation.com/si/) ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/66 "2000-08-25T04:01:17Z")
. . . And we’re off to the races again. You guys all realize (especially the nice and logical ones of you out there on both sides of the issue) that _ **NOTHING!!!** _ ever gets resolved on one of these threads right? And that’s the Truth. ;D ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/67 "2000-08-25T04:32:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NAWOC \* > > \*\*It sounds like the usual to me: > > - Friedrich Nietzsche’s On the Genealogy of Morals > - Derrida On Deconstructionism > - Foucault on Post-modernism \*\* What sounds like the usual to you - there’s a lot of stuff in this thread. And how does any of it sound like the above? > [@](#): > > \*\*The Bible is the best “dataset” there is, who honestly has read it, and studied it? I’ve met a lot of Christians and non-Christians alike that have not studied the literature of the “other”; and truly, having studied non-Christian literature all my life, the Bible is a breath of fresh air. \*\* How so? > [@](#): > > \*\*God is dead, that’s pretty dumb: from someone who only believes in what he/she sees, but has nothing to do with creation in the slightest (man’s life is insignificant). \*\* You haven’t been paying attention. First of all, I don’t think anyone said God is Dead. A few people claimed that He never existed to begin with, however. And atheists do not feel that life is insignificant. In fact, it can be argued that if this mortal coil is all we have, you’re bound to treat it with a lot more reverence than if you think that this is just some shit you deal with before the real rewards, don’t you think? > [@](#): > > \*\*The point is, people don’t want the truth, they want what makes them happy, and happiness is ever changing. \*\* What if the truth makes you happy? What if your truth is not my truth? > [@](#): > > \*\*People will always forever be lost. \*\* Some people have more faith in people. If God created such a fucked up race of people, what does this say about Him (or Her)? > [@](#): > > \*\*God is for those that would believe, the weak, the humble, not the proud, or the selfish. \*\* My, that sure makes _ME_ want to be His cheerleader. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\*Why would God reveal himself to them? Only if he saw in them a good heart, that he could use for his purposes. \*\* So what you’re3 saying is that for those who tried but failed to hear Him, they were… I dunno… not worthy of being revealed to? My, what a petty tyrant. I’m so glad that I don;'t know this person you speak of. > [@](#): > > \*\*God’s wisdom is a mystery, he’s really awesome and incredible. \*\* Such a mystery that we have so many different names for Him and ways to worship Him while some people don’t even think He was ever there. > [@](#): > > \*\*Religion, philosophy, politics are of men. God is the most real, man simply a creation of his. \*\* Some would say that God is a creation of man. > [@](#): > > \*\*The smartest men and women I know are believers, in fact that’s why I changed my major in college to Physics, because the physicists confounded by the incredible creation of the universe were believers to the core of an incredible God, making the world in his liking. \*\* I don’t see many members of the clergy at MENSA meeetings. Not to say that relgious people are dumb, but your statement is patently false unless you simply don’t know enough people to really count here. Nice Bible quote too. I suppose you have some words from The Koran as well? * * * Yer pal, Satan [sub]TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Four months, two weeks, two days, 2 hours, 28 minutes and 40 seconds. 5524 cigarettes not smoked, saving $690.51. Extra time with Drain Bead: 2 weeks, 5 days, 4 hours, 20 minutes.[/sub] **_"Satan is not an unattractive person."_-Drain Bead** [sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey!\*[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/68 "2000-08-25T04:56:41Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The smartest men and women I know are believers, in fact that’s why I changed my major in college to Physics, because the physicists confounded by the incredible creation of the universe were believers to the core of an incredible God, making the world in his liking. > > I don’t see many members of the clergy at MENSA meeetings. > > Not to say that relgious people are dumb, but your statement is patently false unless you simply don’t know enough people to really count here. Just thought I’d step in and provide some statistics here. According to [this](http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm) article, belief rates among members of the National Academy of Sciences are astoundingly low. Not only are they well below belief rates of the general public, but they have been steadily declining since 1914. To top it off, the most prestigious and accomplished scientists are the least religious. Also, there is a spectacular website ([http://www.webspawner.com/users/cfxx/](http://www.webspawner.com/users/cfxx/)) which presents the results of numerous studies, all showing statistically significant **negative** correlations between intelligence/education and religosity. As an atheist, I consider all of these data strong support for my lack of belief. Not that I consider argument from authority valid, but it seems to me that if God existed, his existence would be just as evident (probably more evident) to the most intelligent members of his creation, not less evident. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/69 "2000-08-25T05:23:24Z")
I started a new thread on the tangent that Opus1 started, since it is something I myself have often wondered about and I think it deserves its own debate. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=35958](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=35958) * * * Yer pal, Satan [sub]TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Four months, two weeks, two days, 3 hours, 18 minutes and 19 seconds. 5525 cigarettes not smoked, saving $690.69. Extra time with Drain Bead: 2 weeks, 5 days, 4 hours, 25 minutes.[/sub] **_"Satan is not an unattractive person."_-Drain Bead** [sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey!\*[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/70 "2000-08-25T10:39:31Z")
Hu?H Whot ya’ll are talkign aoubt? ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/71 "2000-08-26T03:31:20Z")
I’ve been bothered by some things said in this thread by the Christians, and they remind me of so many other things said in other threads. Driving along to a client, it came to me what bugs me about these replies. Hey Christians: No one was ever converted without some form of personal revelation, and writing posts that are basically complaining at the non-Christians on this board for not believing is an extremely poor-return method of doing anything productive. PEOPLE ARE LOVED INTO THE “KINGDOM,” NOT BULLIED. And this is not a setting very conducive to doing that. Being mad at non-Christians for not believing is not only not productive, it doesn’t even make much sense when it’s really examined. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/72 "2000-08-26T11:22:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triskadecamus \* > > I ask the forgiveness of all those who are not of the Christian faith, for you, and for myself. > > Tris > \*\* Dear Tris: Please find enclosed your own words, bend over, and insert them rectally until such time as you can not be a religious bigot of hypocritical zeal. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/73 "2000-08-26T14:10:37Z")
Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/74 "2000-08-26T17:29:19Z")
OK, I think I officially despair of having even the semblance of a low key discussion on these topics around here. What is it in people like Hastur that bring these things out? Plus, I really don’t understand at all how Trisk. deserves something even close to this. I suppose this isn’t a case for the moderators, but JEEEEEZZZZZ! For anyone interested (I’m not sure why you would be, but anyway,) in my slant on these threads, see the thread titled “Witness.” ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/75 "2000-08-26T19:21:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hastur \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Triskadecamus \* > > > > I ask the forgiveness of all those who are not of the Christian faith, for you, and for myself. > > > > Tris > > \*\* > > Dear Tris: > > Please find enclosed your own words, bend over, and insert them rectally until such time as you can not be a religious bigot of hypocritical zeal. \*\* So, I am guessing from this that you are not forgiving us. That is of course your own choice. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/76 "2000-08-26T19:31:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Please find enclosed your own words, bend over, and insert them rectally until such time as you can not be a religious bigot of hypocritical zeal. [Moderator Hat ON] Hastur, Do NOT post anything like this ever again in this forum. Understood? Go to the Pit if you feel the unbearable need to post such charming witticisms. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/77 "2000-08-26T19:38:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triskadecamus \* > So, I am guessing from this that you are not forgiving us. > > That is of course your own choice. > > Tris > \*\* The point, and the anger behind my post, was that after lambasting the previous poster for not ‘witnessing’ in a way you considered appropriate, you did the same thing. Your request for forgiveness, as it encompassed those who did not worship your god, came off as arrogant and insulting. Just because others have a faith that is not yours does not give you carte blanche to feel that they must be pitied and prayed for until they come to your point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/78 "2000-08-26T19:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hastur \* > The point, and the anger behind my post, was that after lambasting the previous poster for not ‘witnessing’ in a way you considered appropriate, you did the same thing. Yes, from the point of view of a non-Christian we were both witnessing. I was addressing the intent of his words, and the likely result. I felt it important that the Lord not be represented by what I felt was a smug condemnation of His Children. (That would be all men, in case you wondered, although I do not expect that you share that view.) > [@](#): > > Your request for forgiveness, as it encompassed those who did not worship your god, came off as arrogant and insulting. I was not aware that asking forgiveness was an insult. Please never forgive me again. That is a specifically personal request for you, at your insistence. It pains me that you find my request so insulting. To the rest of the non-Christians on the board, I do not withdraw my request for their forgiveness. I do not think it was an insult to them. > [@](#): > > Just because others have a faith that is not yours does not give you carte blanche to feel that they must be pitied and prayed for until they come to your point of view. I never asked you to come to my point of view. Your anger elicits my concern, but I don’t think it is pity. However you seem absolute in your disregard for any compassion I might have for you, so I will attempt to withhold it from you. The rest of the posters on the board must grant or deny their forgiveness for my presumption as they see fit. I have great confidence that they do not find it insulting, for the most part. Tris ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/79 "2000-08-26T20:03:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dave Swaney \* > \*\*No one was ever converted without some form of personal revelation, and writing posts that are basically complaining at the non-Christians on this board for not believing is an extremely poor-return method of doing anything productive. I’m willing to bet no one really ever groks calculus without a personal revelation either. (OK, maybe not, but there are a number of areas where people suddenly slap their forehead and go “oh, I get it”) Are you saying no one should teach calculus? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980/80 "2000-08-26T20:07:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satan \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by NAWOC \* > > Why would God reveal himself to them? Only if he saw in them a good heart, that he could use for his purposes. > > So what you’re3 saying is that for those who tried but failed to hear Him, they were… I dunno… not worthy of being revealed to? My, what a petty tyrant. I think he clearly means the people who aren’t even trying – i.e. the proud and haughty. You really lambasted this guy with a number of ungracious and petty points like this, do you know that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-say-no-to-god/29980.md?page=5)