Tinker, you said (in part);
Experience with God through true christians will be the key catalyst.
The emphasis is mine.
All I was doing was trying to do was to point out the difference between direct experience, as stated in the OP, and experience through someone else. Even a true christian.
I surely wasn’t trying to shame you in any way. I promise. 
I am sceptical of any direct experience with God, is all.
“Faith”, esp. faith in God, means to believe without reliance on proof, does it not?
Peace,
mangeorge
slythe:
Sounds fine to me! And as long as you can manage to do that without being contemptuous of others (and then whining when they “insult” you as a result) then there is no need for me to be Miss Manners, is there?
Glad we got that cleared up!
sigh
Back on topic(again!)-Outside of an emotional feeling of well-being, are there varifiable reasons to believe in a particular god system, besides the fact that certain groups of people will kick your ass if you don’t believe as they do? The title of the topic was Why should anybody believe in God?, but doesn’t this pre-suppose that we are all talking about same “God”?
If you haven’t read it already, go get 'The “God” part of the Brain-A Scientific Interpretation of Human Spirituality and God" by Matthew Alper. Alper discusses how humans are “wired” to believe in God, soul, afterlife, etc., and delves into the physiological aspects of the spiritual/religious experience. Very interesting, compelling work.
Have not had a chance to read the book yet. Does it say that people of different religions are hardwired differently? Not all religions follow the “all-powerful god who needs constant reassurance and feels the need to bribe us with a Candyland life” path, y’know. Or does it try to claim that Jews, Zen Buddhists, and various other types are rebeling against what the brain is trying to guide them towards?
I believe you, about not trying to shame me that is. Thanks for clarifying. I used the blush smiley because I failed to get what you were getting at. As it turns out, Spiritus was also wrong OR I misunderstood her. sigh
A verse in the book of Hebrews say that faith is the evidence of things not seen. In other words, you are correct. I don’t think that means we can’t bolster our confidence by looking around us and evaluating the universe in terms of our faith. The best we may do might be only to say that there is no contradiction. But that’s pretty good.
As to direct experience with God, even if it does happen, even if I’m fully confident that I had one (or more), I couldn’t prove it to you or anyone OR even myself, strictly speaking.
This is why I stipulated that D was the most important. The atheist position, at least as articulated on this MB, is also self-consistent. Reason, in and of itself, is generally not sufficient (I do know some that claim that that is how they came to God). So for those on this board, for example, to come to God, experience through true christians will be the catalyst.
Thank you helping me articultate these ideas more clearly.
Tinker
You are correct, slythe. My thread-title question should have been “Why should anybody believe in a god?” – but I’m just as content it got restrained to monotheism by the way I inadvertently phrased it.
While I concur that slythe’s tone was a bit confrontational, it’s a worthwhile question: In general, what would be satisfactory evidence for selecting one god (or one interpretation of god) over another. While you may want to refer to YHWH in His one-person or three-person modes, please try not to limit it to Him, but give what criteria a person in general might use. (Should this be a new thread?)
Slythe, David, Gaudere, and Co., try approaching the question from the point of view that you have been convinced of the existence of deity by some process (you might want to discuss what process you’d accept) and now have to come to an understanding of Its characteristics.
As I’ve mentioned before, it would take pretty much a miracle (literally) for me to believe. If said miracle happened (the example I used before was the rising of the dead), then that would be the answer as to why I should believe. Otherwise…
I just got a phone call from a dead horse, he says, “STOP BEATING ME!!!”
A phone call from a dead horse (if proven) would be one of those miracles I was discussing, Poly.
If the god of the Bible was proven to exist through valid evidence, my reaction would be to believe that he exists. because he WAS the god of the Bible, I guess I would have to re-direct my life accordingly.
I would devote my now-eternal life towards bringing that mass-murdering, psychopathic, manic-depressive asshole to justice.
Maybe it’s best that some people DON’T believe.
ROFL!
You’d have one advantage: He’d never be able to get a lawyer to defend him. They’re all in Hell.
A brilliant response, slythe! Have you ever read Asimov’s “The Last Answer”? It’s sort of a flip-side to his famous “The Last Question” and written very late in his life. In it, an atheistic scientist dies and is confronted by God, who closely resembles the straw deity you love to shoot down.
Whatever happened to me was not an encounter with the god you so aptly describe, unless he was in his manic phase and being very mellow.
I loved your answer!
By the way, a quick question: if he’s the all-powerful (as our two hypotheses assumed), how the heck would you “bring him to justice”? I can’t help but agree he deserves it, but you do run into a problem finding, first, a court of competent jurisdiction, and then marshalls with the capability to enforce the orders of the court. I look forward to seeing what you come up with!
The court will be all mankind. As to enforcing the court’s decision, just trick Him into making a rock so big He can’t lift it and then squish Him with it. Now, the omniscience might be a problem, but this guy has certainly seemed quite surprised by human decisions before. I also think a “divide and conquer” strategy might be worthwhile; the Holy Spirit seems to have gotten scammed out of the limelight and is probably feeling resentful–perhaps the prospect of being the sole deity would be enough to get him to cooperate with us. H.S. had better behave himself, though, 'cause we’ll have shown him what we do to Gods that get uppity…
Tinker:
If you are calling me “her” then I thik it is safe to asume you have not understood me. :eek:
You did not, however, misunderstand what I said. I knew I ws walking out on a limb in interpreting mangeorge’s crypticism. That’s why I prefaced it with “I might be wrong”.
Poly – I think we have discussed this efore, but for me the only “reason” which would make sense for my belief of god would be direct experience of the ineffable (Hey, what do you expect – I was forced to read Otto as a child.)
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
Sorry. No wait! I Got It! I was trying to be gender neutral. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Tinker