# Why should Canada be independent of the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638 "2006-07-08T16:00:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/21 "2006-07-10T02:15:16Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] If Canada joined the US, each of the 10 Provinces could become a State. Better yet, we could split up some of the more populous provinces into three or four states, and join as say, 18 States. This would give us 36 seats in an 86-seat Senate. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Rysto] 😛 Do you honestly think that the existing 50 states are going to give 36 Senators to 30 million Canadians? We’d be lucky to get 10. [/QUOTE] In the extraordinarily unlikely event that y’all Canadians come to your senses and accept our superior American culture/the Canadian hordes come swarming down across the border to conquer and rule/the U.N. Commission on Boundary Rectification rationalizes the political boundaries of North America/whatever, I can’t really see why we would do anything but accept each province as a state. (The territories would presumably continue to be territories.) On the one hand, Ontario would only be about the sixth most populous state in the newly enlarged U.S., Quebec would be way down at number 13 or so, and certainly no other province even comes close to needing to be split up purely on population grounds. On the other hand, it’s deeply ingrained in our Constitution that state = equal representation in the Senate (to the point that officially speaking [even a Constitutional amendment can’t deprive a state of equal representation in the Senate](http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlev.html)); and since the Canadian provinces have each been distinct political entities for many years it doesn’t really seem likely any of them would be forced to merge. The only one whose population would be seriously out of line would be Prince Edward Island, which is markedly smaller than the current least populous U.S. state. > [@](#): > > Well for starters, despite the fact that our cultures are similar, our politics are radically different. The countries differ on so many domestic issues: gay marriage, healthcare, crime, the environment, gun control, the role of government, etc. So Canada would be losing control on many of this issues. (Don’t try to make a parallel to Quebec vs. Canada; Quebec’s politics are very much in line with much of Canada, especially Ontario and the Maritimes). At least many of these issues are largely determined at the state level, so it’s not as if Ontario would necessarily have to accept Mississippi’s idea on, say, gun laws any more than Illinois does. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/22 "2006-07-10T02:29:25Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Why should the U.S. be independent of Canada? We’re better and nicer and generally less nuts. [/QUOTE] Of course, we’re talking about a purely **political** union. Sending your taxes and your representatives to Washington instead of Ottawa (or maybe the other way around, that’s a detail 😉 ). That woudn’t make you guys any worse or nastier or crazier . . . would it? Well, maybe . . . ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/23 "2006-07-10T02:33:32Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] The realities of the US Constitution take precedence over the Texans’ myths about their state. [/QUOTE] Besides, in what the Republic of Texas _claimed_ to be in its jurisdiction when it was annexed, there are already parts of modern-day New Mexico, Colorado, Oklahoma and Kansas. So we can say they already got their “five states” . It’s sort of like a law of political physics – given free choice about it, societies _already constituted into sovereign states_ are expected to and will resist the diminution of that sovereignty EITHER by annexation OR by seccession, in the absence of a compelling beneficial interest to be gained from it; and societies that are not completely sovereign will seek to increase \*their \* effective sovereignty either by obtaining greater participation in the parent entity’s decision-making, or greater autonomy (up to and including independence). ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/24 "2006-07-10T02:36:46Z")
Despite the similarities between Canada and the U.S., there are many differences. Subtle, yet numerous. And to my surprise, even though I live in the U.S. now, as a Canadian I often find it easier to hang out with Europeans from a variety of countries – we just have more in common, and have similar interests. Because let’s face it: _there’s more to culture than what you watch on TV_. French Quebeckers often argue that mass media _is_ culture, and that English Canada is the same as the U.S. But that’s not the case, as people who have lived in both countries can tell you. Don’t believe me? Ask **elfbabe, Ginger of the North, fishbicycle** and others. The OP berates the CRTC for mandating Canadian content laws, yet conveniently fails to mention that those same Canadian content laws (and, by extension, funding for Canadian programming) helped create and support _French-language_ media as well. ( **Valteron** is in a better position to research this than I am, but didn’t TQS start out airing almost nothing but dubbed U.S. TV shows and movies? Isn’t that still the case?) How much funding from _Telefilm Canada_ has supported Quebec-based artistic endeavours? In the early 90’s I used to work with fledging film-makers in Montreal, and as I recall there was plenty of government money going around, from Ottawa and from Quebec, for their work. By that same token, please provide a citation indicating how much BellGlobeMedia and Thomson (the publishers of Maclean’s) get as tax breaks – tax breaks that aren’t duplicated for the publishers of _L’actualite_. > [@](#): > > If we were part of the US, they could not restrict trade with a part of their own country. Patently untrue! Trade between provinces and states is restricted _all the fricking time!_. Here in the U.S., there was a recent court decision saying states had to drop some, but not all, of their restrictions on shipping alcohol across state lines. Similar restrictions exist in Canada, which is why it’s tough to procure Big Rock, Granville Island, or Keith’s in all parts of the country. > [@](#): > > Quebec would lose its language, but that would hardly be any concern for the English-speaking majority. Again, patently untrue. There is no earthly reason, even if the two countries were to merge, for francophones to give up the french language. It ain’t the 20th century any more. Heck, in New Hampshire and Maine, many people descended from Quebecois expatriates are taking [french lessons!](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/us/04french.html?ei=5088&en=0de2be3d229527e4&ex=1307073600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=all) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/25 "2006-07-10T02:37:41Z")
[QUOTE=MEBuckner] (The territories would presumably continue to be territories. [/QUOTE] That’s another thing . . . Except for the island possessions, it has become a tradition in the U.S. that territories are not to continue in that status permanently; a territory is something on its way to becoming a full state. Where would Yukon and Northwest and Nunavut fit into that? Of course, it goes without saying they **would** be included in the union on some terms. Yes, we’ll have Nunavut! 😃 [**BrainGlutton** vanishes from cybersight under mound of hurled rotten vegetables] ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/26 "2006-07-10T13:16:37Z")
Personally, I see **immense** value to both nations in an independent Canada separate from the U.S., demonstrating to the world that there are two different ways to be a North American “melting pot” democracy. Canadian patriotic attitudes are a bit more downplayed than the flag-waving Star-Spangled Banner-playing American style. but nonetheless quite real and heartfelt. It might further be noted, given the “provinces become states” scenario, that in addition to the three territories, Prince Edward Island is extremely small and low population by comparison to U.S. states. It’s marginally larger than Delaware in area, and only about a quarter the population of Wyoming. Quebec is marginally larger than Alaska in area, and Ontario is about 1.55 times the sixe of Texas. One Ontario district (~county), Kenora, is larger than probably half the U.S. states. I’ll simply add a quip from Heinlein (_Time Enough for Love_) to the mix: “Vancouver: It was an American city made up of people smart enough to find a good way to avoid sending their taxes to Washington.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/27 "2006-07-10T23:25:21Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] The US wold form an Empire stretching from the Gulf of Mexico to the North Pole, with over 330 million people! This ridiculous division along an artificial border has got to end. . [/QUOTE] But we couldn’t do that! Then we’d have to deal with America-hating terrorists sneaking in through Ellesmere Island and Nunavit! 😃 Seriously though, I don’t think the differences of Anglophone Canada and the U.S. should be diminuated. Canada is a different country that remained–and does remain–loyal to the Crown and has its own history, founders, pioneers, and form of government. In my opinion there is much good there that I would not want to see smooshed into the United-Statesian mass, and thereby lost. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/28 "2006-07-11T00:46:28Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] Seriously though, I don’t think the differences of Anglophone Canada and the U.S. should be diminuated. Canada is a different country that remained–and does remain–loyal to the Crown and has its own history, founders, pioneers, and form of government. In my opinion there is much good there that I would not want to see smooshed into the United-Statesian mass, and thereby lost. [/QUOTE] OTOH, don’t forget that Canada’s Mother Country is not the UK, but the U.S. English-speaking Canada hardly existed before the Revolution. It was formed as a nation mostly by United Empire Loyalists fleeing the U.S. in the Revolution’s wake, plus voluntary Yankee emigrants in the following decades. That’s your “hearth culture.” From [_Vietnam: The Necessary War,_](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684870274/sr=8-1/qid=1152578451/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9424761-5028125?ie=UTF8) by Michael Lind: > [@](#): > > The real reason for the persistence of sectionalism in U.S. foreign policy can be found in the ethnoregional theory of American politics, which has been developed by the historians David Hackett Fischer, Daniel Elazar, D.W. Meinig, Kevin Phillips, and others. The ethnoregional theory holds that in the United States powerful ethnic and regional subcultures are more important and enduring than political parties and ideologies. The labels “Democrat” and “Republican” differ in their meaning from generation to generation; regional subcultures such as those of New England and the Tidewater South change much more slowly. > > The greatest insight of ethnoregional theorists is that immigrants in the United States do not assimilate to a uniform American national culture; rather, they assimilate to one of a small number of preexisting regional cultures. The historian Wilbur Zelinsky has defined a thesis he calls the Doctrine of Effective First Settlement that holds: “Whenever an empty territory undergoes settlement, or an earlier population is dislodged by invaders, the specific characteristics of the first group able to affect a viable, self-perpetuating society are of crucial significance for the later social and cultural geography of the area, no matter how tiny the initial band of settlers may have been.” . . . In Canada’s case, later waves of British immigrants would have assimilated to the culture of the American settlers. The effects are still visible. E.g., Canadians speak a distinct dialect of English, eh? But it sounds a lot closer to American “Anchorman English” than to any British dialect. In fact, it resembles “Anchorman English” more than does the Southern drawl or Boston honk. A Brit visiting the U.S. will be spotted as such immediately. Nobody’s going to guess you’re Canadian unless you bring it up. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/29 "2006-07-11T00:50:29Z")
Regarding the above, Lind goes on to explain how political scientists attribute the different political cultures of America (“Traditional” in the South, “Individual” in the Mid-Atlantic, “Moralist” in New England and Greater New England (the Upper Midwest and Pacific Northwest, settled first by New Englands)) to the different regions of Britain from which their first settlers originated (New England from Puritan East Anglia, etc.). And I’ve heard Canada’s welfare-state culture attributed to the “Tory Paternalism” of the upper-class United Empire Loyalists. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/30 "2006-07-11T01:03:14Z")
Regarding the above, Lind goes on to explain how political scientists attribute the different political cultures of America (“Traditional” in the South, “Individual” in the Mid-Atlantic, “Moralist” in New England and Greater New England (the Upper Midwest and Pacific Northwest, settled first by New Englands)) to the different regions of Britain from which their first settlers originated (New England from Puritan East Anglia, etc.). And I’ve heard Canada’s welfare-state culture attributed to the “Tory Paternalism” of the upper-class United Empire Loyalists. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/31 "2006-07-11T01:11:28Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] And I’ve heard Canada’s welfare-state culture attributed to the “Tory Paternalism” of the upper-class United Empire Loyalists. [/QUOTE] The problem with this is that 1. Canada really does not have much more of a “welfare state” than the United States does, 2. What differences there are mostly after World War II, a bit late to be ascribing much influence to the UELs, and 3. A “Welfare state” culture would have been utterly foreign to United Empire Loyalists. There was no such thing as a “welfare state” in 1780. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/32 "2006-07-11T01:28:17Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] 3. A “Welfare state” culture would have been utterly foreign to United Empire Loyalists. There was no such thing as a “welfare state” in 1780. [/QUOTE] No, but (as I heard the theory explained) there was a general sense of _noblesse oblige,_ on the part of the elite and, consequently, the state. As in Britain, long before the National Health system was conceived of. Read any novel that features a country squire; he’s expected to be the leader in charity, etc. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/33 "2006-07-11T01:31:42Z")
E.g., _Great Expectations._ Why does Miss Havisham pay for Pip’s indenture? Because doling out patronage is what a lady of her station does. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/34 "2006-07-11T01:45:14Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Why should the U.S. be independent of Canada? We’re better and nicer and generally less nuts. [/QUOTE] Yes on all three counts, but only because power corrupts and Canada has virtually no power. 😉 I would love to see North America mature enough to form one huge Union with but one very small border. I would love to see it, but I do not expect to ever see it. How do the sparcely populated territories of Canada compare to Wyoming’s. That is our lowest population at only 493,782. I think the Yukon’s is ridiculous low to expect it to get any representation. According to Wiki: 31,227. ```auto Rank Name Population Percentage of national 1 Ontario 12,541,400 38.9% 2 Quebec 7,598,100 23.5% 3 British Columbia 4,254,500 13.2% 4 Alberta 3,256,800 10.1% 5 Manitoba 1,177,600 3.6% 6 Saskatchewan 994,100 3.1% 7 Nova Scotia 937,900 2.9% 8 New Brunswick 752,000 2.3% 9 Newfoundland 516,000 1.6% 10 Prince Edward 138,100 0.4% 11 NW Territories 43,000 0.1% 12 Yukon 31,000 0.1% 13 Nunavut 30,000 0.1% ``` I would say 9 or 10 states at most for Canada. But maybe we can do away with our current state system and come up with a different method. Our two party system is not so great. Jim ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/35 "2006-07-11T01:51:15Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Our two party system is not so great. [/QUOTE] There are better solutions to that. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/36 "2006-07-11T12:39:12Z")
[QUOTE=Rodgers01] If Canada did get 36 senators, I’d bet anything that Texas would use that clause that would allow it to break up into 5 states just to counterbalance it. [/QUOTE] I don’t see anything about that in the admission of Texas, even after double-checking the original records from 30 March 1870. (Oh, did you mean the **old** version?) ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/37 "2006-07-11T13:01:17Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] I don’t see anything about that in the admission of Texas, even after double-checking the original records from 30 March 1870. (Oh, did you mean the **old** version?) [/QUOTE] [Wiki’s take](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_States#Subdivision_of_Texas_to_form_new_states) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/38 "2006-07-11T13:25:17Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] As one of my posters on another thread pointed out, money talks! [/QUOTE] I don’t have a dog in this fight, as I think both state-supported/controlled and free-market culture tends to mostly suck, but one could easily counterbalance your statement with another one: votes talk! If you don’t like state controlled culture, vote for people who want to bring in freer markets. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/39 "2006-07-11T13:40:01Z")
[url=[Texas (U.S.)](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-tx.html)]FOTW’s take. [/quote] Quoting FOTW, which quoted some Texas law: > [@](#): > > According to the Flag Law of Texas: > > Art. 6139b. Pledge of allegiance to the state flag. > (a) The pledge of allegiance to the state flag is, “Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one and indivisible.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638/40 "2006-07-11T14:42:45Z")
[QUOTE=Rodgers01] [Wiki’s take](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_States#Subdivision_of_Texas_to_form_new_states) [/QUOTE] [More at Snopes.](http://www.snopes.com/history/american/texas.asp) (The purpose of the agreement, at the time, was to provide a safety valve to maintain the slave state-free state balance in the Senate.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-canada-be-independent-of-the-us/363638.md?page=3)