# Why should Christ be responsible for the crimes of Christians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843 "2009-08-09T17:05:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/21 "2009-08-10T23:06:32Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > To me it seems quite simple that Christ is not responsible for the very small number of crimes that have been committed by Christians. That can be seen by basic facts. How many Christians have there been? Somewhere in the range of 5-10 billion. How many have committed violence because of their religion? Hard to give an exact figure or even a decent estimate, but certainly a tiny number compared to the total. Hence, since Christians are among the most peaceful group to have ever lived, Christ should be praised for producing a religion that’s so peaceful. Garbage. Christianity has been an engine of slaughter and brutality for most of its existence. Entire cultures have been systematically destroyed to aid its spread. It’s the opposite of peaceful; it got to its present position by wading through its collective hips in blood. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Really? The Romans required that everybody within the Roman Empire had to worship the emperor, and dished out some pretty cruel punishments on anyone who refused. And they didn’t care if you worshiped other things as well. As opposed to Christianity, which has historically used torture and murder to force entire populations to worship it, and killed those who worshipped anything else. The Romans were more, not less religiously tolerant. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > This, needless to say, is untrue. Ah, I see. When it comes to claims about peace and progress, then Christianity gets the credit. But all those people running around slaughtering and enslaving other people for God don’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/22 "2009-08-10T23:07:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **Der Trihs** , if a bunch of Jews started killing people to convert them to worship of YHVH, would you hold YHVH morally responsible for the deaths? No, because he never existed. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/23 "2009-08-10T23:13:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, because he never existed. Okay. If a bunch of Americans started slaughtering immigrants based on a recently unearthed speech of Martin Luther King’s in which he called for the slaughter of all immigrants, would you blame MLK for their actions? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/24 "2009-08-10T23:14:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage. Christianity has been an engine of slaughter and brutality for most of its existence. Entire cultures have been systematically destroyed to aid its spread. It’s the opposite of peaceful; it got to its present position by wading through its collective hips in blood. I challenge you to provide cites to back up these claims. Of course, you never provide cites to back up any of your claims, but who knows? Maybe we’ll witness a historic first. > [@](#): > > And they didn’t care if you worshiped other things as well. As opposed to Christianity, which has historically used torture and murder to force entire populations to worship it, and killed those who worshipped anything else. The Romans were more, not less religiously tolerant. You apparently need a history lesson. For as long was Rome was Pagan, it ruthlessly exterminated and enslaved entire nations. That lasted until Constantine, the first Christian Emperor, took over and declared religious tolerance to be the law. Those are the facts, much as you may dislike them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/25 "2009-08-10T23:19:09Z")
**Der Trihs** and **ITR Champion** , if you two ever shook hands, the resulting explosion would probably destroy the earth. Neither of you admits to the slightest nuance in your worldview; neither of you makes the least allowance for the imperfection of your claim. Both of your views would put most fundamentalists to shame in their zealotry. Please never shake hands. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/26 "2009-08-10T23:19:17Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Aside from pacifism, it seems from the scriptures that the historical Jesus preached that there was a heaven, that by following his teachings people could go to that heaven and that compared to the afterlife, the affiars of our day-to-day lives and our suffering in this world were more or less unimportant. > > I don’t think it takes too much foresight to see that if a certain kind of person accepts the above tenants, they will end up justifying a whole lot of very unfortunate acts with them. After all, burning a heretic to death for their beliefs may seem evil, but if that heretic is putting hundreds or thousands of eternal souls at risk with his teachings, burning him to death is certainly the lesser evil to letting him continue. And if a nation is full of non-belivers, certainly the warfare and death needed to conquer that country and convert its population is a small price to pay to bring more souls to God. This is utterly illogical. We know perfectly well that people who believe in no God and no afterlife are willing to commit crimes against humanity on a much more enormous scale than any religious group has ever considered. The Jacobins, the Soviets, the Nazis, the Chinese communists, and numerous other groups of atheists have proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Hence to say that teaching people about an afterlife will inevitably lead to mass murder is not just illogical, but also factually false. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/27 "2009-08-10T23:24:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **Der Trihs** and **ITR Champion** , if you two ever shook hands, the resulting explosion would probably destroy the earth. Neither of you admits to the slightest nuance in your worldview; neither of you makes the least allowance for the imperfection of your claim. Both of your views would put most fundamentalists to shame in their zealotry. I am perfectly willing to accept that my claims may be imperfect. All I ask is that if you want me to change my beliefs, provide evidence from an outside source, because I don’t accept ‘proof by endless repetition’ as a valid proof technique. For some reason **Der Trihs** and those like him are never able to find any outside sources that back up their claims. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/28 "2009-08-10T23:27:49Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The Jacobins, the Soviets, the Nazis, the Chinese communists, and numerous other groups of atheists have proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. > [@Adolf Hitler](#): > > The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God’s will, and actually fulfill God’s will, and not let God’s word be desecrated. For God’s will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord’s creation, the divine will. > [@Maximelien Robespierre](#): > > The day forever fortunate has arrived, which the French people have consecrated to the Supreme Being. Never has the world which He created offered to Him a spectacle so worthy of His notice. He has seen reigning on the earth tyranny, crime, and imposture. He sees at this moment a whole nation, grappling with all the oppressions of the human race, suspend the course of its heroic labors to elevate its thoughts and vows toward the great Being who has given it the mission it has undertaken and the strength to accomplish it. I’ll give you the Soviets and the Chinese Communists. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/29 "2009-08-10T23:34:55Z")
In answer to the OP, I’d say that a non-divine Christ would be responsible for the crimes of Christians in a domino or butterfly effect kind of way, but not in the sense we’d usually think of a person being guilty for a crime. Even if his philosophies may be used as justification for evil, it’s not like he was spectacularly evil for his time; he was just an impoverished street preacher preaching hope. Perhaps a little differently than the other preachers did at the time, but still he was hardly bearing the most atrocious philosophy floating around at the time. So, presuming he was an ordinary human street preacher, you can’t really fault him for the fact that his philosophy managed to bounce around and get enough boosts over and over again to rise to be a prominent (if extremely mutated) religion. That stuff all happened after he was dead. So, sure, he was the ultimate _cause_, but it’s tough to actually _blame_ him. He would have had no idea what his preaching would engender. Of course, if he actually _was_ divine, then all bets are off - the guy who lines up the dominos can’t plead innocence about how they eventually fall. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/30 "2009-08-10T23:44:33Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I am perfectly willing to accept that my claims may be imperfect. All I ask is that if you want me to change my beliefs, provide evidence from an outside source, because I don’t accept ‘proof by endless repetition’ as a valid proof technique. For some reason **Der Trihs** and those like him are never able to find any outside sources that back up their claims. In addition to the earlier quotes, there’s this doozy I want to respond to: > [@ITR](#): > > The Spanish Inquisition is often blamed for its violence and cruelty, yet it killed far fewer people per year than the United States has in the past century. Yet nobody blasts Washington, Jefferson, et al for causing the USA’s current murder spree. This is a bizarre quote. First, you’re suggesting that we compare the deaths from the Inquisition in a year to the deaths in the US in 100 years? How is that a reasonable comparison? Second, the last 100 years of the US operated in two world wars using deadly modern technology, including a single atom bomb; how is it fair to compare deaths committed with iron and fire to deaths committed with steel and uranium and airplanes? Third, there are a helluva lot more Americans than there are members of the Inquisition; a more reasonable comparison would be per-capita killings. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/31 "2009-08-11T00:42:50Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > You apparently need a history lesson. For as long was Rome was Pagan, it ruthlessly exterminated and enslaved entire nations. That lasted until Constantine, the first Christian Emperor, took over and declared religious tolerance to be the law. Those are the facts, much as you may dislike them. No, YOU need a lesson. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by religious tolerance. org: > > During much of the Roman Empire, the civil government enforced religious tolerance. Within the empire, many religions flourished: the Greek and Roman Pagan religions, mystery religions, Christianity, Judaism, Mithraism, etc. It required only that its citizens perform certain routine civic duties. Unfortunately for the Christians, everyone was required to make nominal sacrifices to the Roman Gods, and sometimes to recognize the Emperor as divine. Many of the early Christians refused to meet these requirements, and so were seriously oppressed under some emperors. > > After Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire in the late 4th century, religious toleration ended: > > Pagan temples were confiscated and their priests and priestesses either exiled or murdered. > > Jews were horribly persecuted. Initially, this was because all persons of the Jewish faith (past, present and future) were regarded as equally responsible for the execution of Jesus Christ. In reality, the crucifixion appears to have been a routine execution by the Roman occupying forces. Yet the descendants of 1st Century CE Romans, the Italians, were never blamed for Jesus’ unjust execution. Only the Jews were. The Roman requirements were civil in nature, it was like paying your taxes. You didn’t have to believe in or worship their gods, but were required as a citizen to make a nominal appearance occasionally. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/32 "2009-08-11T00:59:55Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > No, YOU need a lesson. > The Roman requirements were civil in nature, it was like paying your taxes. You didn’t have to believe in or worship their gods, but were required as a citizen to make a nominal appearance occasionally. Thanks for saving me the time to look that information up. Christianity didn’t spread after Constatine person to person, it spread by conversion of rulers and then forced conversion of their people, with nasty penalties if you were caught worshiping the ancient gods. BTW Jews were exempt from the requirement of Emperor worship. It certainly makes sense that the Romans figured out that if a member of a polytheistic religion decided not to worship the Emperor once in a while, it was more of a political statement than a religious one. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/33 "2009-08-11T01:16:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW Jews were exempt from the requirement of Emperor worship. It certainly makes sense that the Romans figured out that if a member of a polytheistic religion decided not to worship the Emperor once in a while, it was more of a political statement than a religious one. snip That’s the crux of the matter exactly. The early Christians were in all likelihood making a political rather than religious statement. They were refusing to accept the dominion of the emperor and in effect stating that “No one but god can judge me”. The Romans understood the Jews and wrote their laws accordingly, they still had to pay or make a face value sacrifice like everyone else though. The Jews were smart enough to realize how to play the game. Christians however were a new upstart religion and were subject to Roman law, not being grandfathered like the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/34 "2009-08-11T07:58:19Z")
I think that **Der Trihs** has forgotten that the original question was about blaming the Christ for what the Christians have done. **Der Trihs** takes a line about a sword from a book he doesn’t believe in anyway and on that one line he makes the Christ into some sort of demon because of the horrors that some Christians have done. > [@](#): > > And his basic philosophy, the idea that there is an eternal afterlife and his is the one true faith and so on demands and excuses the evils that Christians have committed. What gives you the idea that this is his basic philosophy? > [@](#): > > …the basic worldview he was pushing demanded as a moral imperative violence and oppression and conversion by force. What gives you the idea that this was his basic worldview? If you want to get an idea of his basics, you might look at what he called the First Great Commandment and the Second Commandment. Those are the two principles that seem to be most important to him. It’s like when your dad says, “In this house, there are two things you’ve got to remember. You have to obey Mom and me and we all have to take care of each other.” You know that those are the basics. Then someone who doesn’t even know your dad comes along and says, “The basic thing about your dad is that he has a dumb kid who always screws up.” ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/35 "2009-08-11T16:59:11Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I think that **Der Trihs** has forgotten that the original question was about blaming the Christ for what the Christians have done. > > **Der Trihs** takes a line about a sword from a book he doesn’t believe in anyway and on that one line he makes the Christ into some sort of demon because of the horrors that some Christians have done… Well, Zoe, let me set aside any question of misunderstood symbolic meaning, or whether the quote in its context is really benign or at least much tamer. Why do you think it’s a point that Der Tris does not believe in the book in question? Would you have to be Muslim to criticize their sacred text? _ **Hmmmmmm?** _ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/36 "2009-08-12T04:23:21Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > You apparently need a history lesson. For as long was Rome was Pagan, it ruthlessly exterminated and enslaved entire nations. That lasted until Constantine, the first Christian Emperor, took over and declared religious tolerance to be the law. Those are the facts, much as you may dislike them. Maybe. (Although Rome was still pretty damned ruthless, maybe it wasn’t religiously motivated then) But once Justinian came on the scene, then people were persecuted for not being _Christian_. So it started up again, just with a different religion. You can’t change human nature. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **Der Trihs** and **ITR Champion** , if you two ever shook hands, the resulting explosion would probably destroy the earth. Neither of you admits to the slightest nuance in your worldview; neither of you makes the least allowance for the imperfection of your claim. Both of your views would put most fundamentalists to shame in their zealotry. > > Please never shake hands. Amen, brother. ---
**Author:** ![\_cc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/e19b73/32.png) [@\_cc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_cc)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/37 "2009-08-13T14:10:10Z")
I wouldn’t say Christ is inherently responsible for the actions of Christians because I’m not convinced a person by the name or title of Jesus Christ actually existed. Saul of Tarsus, on the other hand, has a lot to answer for. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/38 "2009-08-13T18:49:45Z")
> [@'\[cc](#): > > ;11440465’]I wouldn’t say Christ is inherently responsible for the actions of Christians because I’m not convinced a person by the name or title of Jesus Christ actually existed. > > Saul of Tarsus, on the other hand, has a lot to answer for. Note, the OP says that for the purpose of this debate, we’re assuming he DID exist. (Whether or not he was divine doesn’t matter) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/39 "2009-08-13T20:43:28Z")
> [@'\[cc](#): > > ;11440465’]I wouldn’t say Christ is inherently responsible for the actions of Christians because I’m not convinced a person by the name or title of Jesus Christ actually existed. > > Saul of Tarsus, on the other hand, has a lot to answer for. My position: people are responsible for the foreseeable outcomes of their choices. If Jesus really existed, and if he really said the things attributed to him (the second being the much bigger assumption by far), then possibly he could be held responsible for later crimes committed in his name–but he could similarly be held responsible for the mercy granted in his name, and for the kindness shown in his name. Everyone who saw caring for the sick as their divine calling is his responsibility as well, by that standard. But I’m not sure all those folks’ actions are foreseeable outcomes of Jesus’s choices. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843/40 "2009-08-13T20:54:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > My position: people are responsible for the foreseeable outcomes of their choices. If Jesus really existed, and if he really said the things attributed to him (the second being the much bigger assumption by far), then possibly he could be held responsible for later crimes committed in his name–but he could similarly be held responsible for the mercy granted in his name, and for the kindness shown in his name. Everyone who saw caring for the sick as their divine calling is his responsibility as well, by that standard. > > But I’m not sure all those folks’ actions are foreseeable outcomes of Jesus’s choices. In my opinion, he _is_ responsible, but cannot be _held_ responsible for the unforseeable and unintended consequences of his actions. The second is a judgement of accountability, but the first is simply a statement of the chain of causality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-christ-be-responsible-for-the-crimes-of-christians/505843.md?page=3)